• spacesweedkid27 @lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    I don’t fucking get on how Israel has never really tried forming a state in which both palestinians and jews can live in peace together.

    This is not what Zyonism has done: Now there is no possibility for peace, there are only religious fanatics.

    Hamas or today’s Israel, both want to have it all.

    • Unaware7013@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      Because they don’t want it, simple as that. Why do you think they’ve been illegally stealing Palestinian land and bulldozing their homes for illegal settlements for decades?

    • kemsat@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      They have. The issue is that their country was drawn up, by Europeans, without the consent of the people that were already living there. So the Palestinians, rightfully, don’t want any Israel to be there at all, on account of it being on land stolen from them.

      I know a lot of the world is European living in stolen lands, but, surprisingly, none of the rest of the people give a single shot what happened in the last 500 years, they simply just want the intruders gone.

      • gh0stcassette@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        1 year ago

        Imo the whole “let’s give Jewish people a state after the holocaust” thing was a good idea, but they should have put it Germany. Germany were the ones who actually Did the holocaust, therefore there’s some argument to be made that they were entitled to German land, you could consider it a form of reparations. There was no argument for Jewish people being entitled to Palestine because their ancient ancestors lived there like 1800 years ago or whatever

        • PM_ME_FEET_PICS
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          1 year ago

          Europe as a whole was still extreamly antisemitic. They were still not wanted.

          • winterayars
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            1 year ago

            TBH going “let’s ship them all out to Israel, which just happens to be very far away from here and us” is an inherently antisemitic position.

      • naevaTheRat@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        1 year ago

        the settlement started before British support which came later. It’s super complicated.

        edit: reasonable overview on Wikipedia of events leading up to Israel actually https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

        Bastardised simple summary is

        • Europeans treat Jewish people like shit for thousands of years
        • creates support for Jewish sovern state
        • languishes a while but antisemitism gets worse
        • in typical European fashion it is decided to just start settling where other people already live and force the existence of a country
        • ww1, Britain and France decide they know how to do a middle east. Results show typical commitment to stability and fairness.
        • settlement is supported by various and sundry European powers inc German Reich in lead up to and during ww2 because everyone hates Jewish people and wants to foist them off to some other, preferable brown skinned, person’s country.
        • after ww2 everyone eventually gets mad at the results of this sensitive and thoughtful plan, including European supporters, neighbouring countries, Palestinans, and many Jewish people. Fear and hatred fuel dominance of increasingly aggressive right wing political parties.
        • everyone except the USA that is. Their government has a blast supply weapons after Britain and France wash their hands and claim guiltlessness.
        • land grabs and oppression intensifies
    • Syndic@feddit.de
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      1 year ago

      I don’t fucking get on how Israel has never really tried forming a state in which both palestinians and jews can live in peace together.

      The Zionist terrorist of the British Mandate period were founding members of the state of Israel. For example Menachem Begin who later became a founding member of the Likud party which Netanyahu belongs to. These asshats from the start wanted to get rid of all Palestinians/Arabs and get the whole country for Jewish people. That’s why the Zyonist terrorist fist targeted communities where Jews and Palestinians/Arabs were living together in peace. Netanyahu is just continuing this goal and he would rather die than to allow for a stable two state solution to become reality.

    • winterayars
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      1 year ago

      The “one state solution” is the only real way forward but it’s not surprising it’s not very popular. The Jews would be a minority in this hypothetical country and there are two problems with that:

      One, the right wing types types really will only accept a Jewish-dominant theocratic state as an outcome. Everything comes second to that. Even the others feel like they “need” a safe state that’s free from generations of oppression against Jews. There are more Palestinians than Jews right now, so giving those Palestinians any kind of political representation is a non starter.

      Two, how do you think the Palestinians feel about Jews right now? How do you think they would behave if given political power right now? I’m not saying they’d all turn around and look for equal but opposite revenge but I doubt they’re happy about all this. Further, do you think the Israelis are going to want to put themselves in that position?

      So because of that. while i think the one state solution is the only realistic non-genocidal way forward i’m not optimistic about it coming to pass.

      • spacesweedkid27 @lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        What you’re saying in the last part is basically that the Zionists fucked up and because of them fucking up the conflict became so polarized that a one state solution is impossible.

        I agree with that but only because it’s like that today, but there have always been means to descalate diplomical situations but if the state Israel keeps voting for Netanjahu I don’t think that things will be better.

        The problem is though that he is a populist and everywhere on the globe populists are getting power and there does not seem to be a solution in sight for that problem.

        • winterayars
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          1 year ago

          I agree that this is the situation today and not the situation yesterday, though i don’t see it changing tomorrow (as i said, i guess). I think back in the 1990s a two state solution was conceivable, even, but that was a long time ago.

      • deegeese@sopuli.xyz
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        1 year ago

        The people under apartheid aren’t accepting their place? Shocker.

        Israel will never know peace while they continue to oppress Palestinians.

        • nonailsleft@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          Israel won’t know peace if they stop either. How did the US and Canada solve ‘the problem’ with the natives?

    • theneverfox@pawb.social
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      1 year ago

      The same reason why in the US we have people attacking trans people (even when they’ve literally never seen one in person) and why our monopoly laws have gone from “chop them up for the common good” to “you better stop it or we might levy a symbolic fine”

      The political window has been shifted so far right that the left’s position is “we need to be nicer to the people in Gaza, but really carefully since they’ll subjugate us if they have the chance”

      It’s not an accident, it’s a small group of people with a lot of money who are investing it in hijacking discourse for their own power.

      If you get on tv and start pitching socialism, you’re instantly dismissed as a radical. You can’t even have the conversation - people don’t understand what that means and will instinctively recite nonsensical talking points, because they’ve been fed those for so long it would take an intensive college course to unlearn enough that they can have the actual conversation of “would this work better”. The vast majority has internalized the idea that “raw dog capitalism is the only feasible system”

      It’s the same with Israel. They’ve been fed propoganda so long that you can’t have the conversation - they’ve internalized the idea that Gaza is a bunch of animals who want to kill them, and the furthest left thing you can pitch to them is “well, maybe we should improve their situation economically, but we have to be careful not to let our foot on their neck slip off too fast”

      Fun fact - there’s a lot of overlap with the groups doing this in the US and the ones doing it in Israel. By that I mean literally the same groups are funding both propaganda efforts, like the heritage foundation

    • Johanno@feddit.de
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      1 year ago

      Afaik palestinians can live and work in Israel in peace. There are still several issues in Israel if you are palestinian but you are a free person who can live there in peace.

      I mean as long the Hamas isn’t attacking them you can even live in Gaza and work in Israel.

      But in Gaza I don’t think a jew will survive for long.

        • Johanno@feddit.de
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          1 year ago

          Ok Israel is on a downwards spiral to hell in regards to human rights. More than I thought.

          It is sad that it is still much better than Gaza.

          In my opinion this conflict will never end. Both sides won’t ever to come to agreement.

      • winterayars
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        1 year ago

        This is definitely not true. If you are Palestinian you don’t have freedom of movement inside Palestine let alone freedom to enter Israel. They’re not all permanently barred (gotta let them in so they can work for Israel) but they’re not free.

        You’re also not able to live in peace in Palestine. Settlers regularly come in and drive people out. Food, water. medical supplies, and more are tightly controlled by Israel.

        There are non Jews who are Israel citizens, including some Palestinian people, but that’s a different story and those are not the people we’re talking about.

    • gedaliyah@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      I don’t fucking get on how Israel has never really tried forming a state in which both palestinians and jews can live in peace together.

      That is literally what Israel is. 20% of citizens are Palestinian. They have the exact same rights as any other citizen, and representation in the Israeli Parliament.

      As far as Gaza is concerned, Israel withdrew all settlers and military almost 20 years ago. Israel doesn’t want any part of Gaza, but the Hamas party who rules Gaza with an iron fist wants to invade and drive out Israel.

        • Final Remix@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Can I just say how nice it is that we can have multiple links in a comment and it doesn’t get automodded and silently hidden like on reddit?

      • BluJay320@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        1 year ago

        Let me just take the majority of your house, leaving you with only your bathroom, and then tell me how wanting me out is trying to invade my territory

      • S_204@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        20% are Arab, not necessarily Palestinians… but ya, saying they’re an apartheid state is kinda scuttled by, well, the facts.

        • gh0stcassette@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          1 year ago

          There are far more ethnic Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank living in third world conditions, who are denied Israeli citizenship than there are Palestinian Israeli citizens, and even the ones with citizenship are subjected to a level of racism and state violence comparable to Black Americans in the Jim Crow south.

          • winterayars
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            1 year ago

            There are about 7 million Jews in Israel and about 2 million Arabs. (With like less than a million “others”? Something like that.) Palestine’s population has been declining (for some… mysterious reason…) but there are still about 5 million Palestinians.

            It’s simply a question of the numbers: you can have a theocratic Jewish state of Israel or you can have a representative democracy that gives equal Rights to the Palestinians, but not both. Likud is a party of theocrats and they’ve all decided long ago which is more important to them.