I mean, I think I understand what you are trying to say, the people who where born in Isn’treal, with an Isn’treal passport are not settlers, and while I can agree in principle, that is really not the case for the vast majority of them, the majority of citizens of Isn’treal have a second citizenship and moved in. For a settler colony so new (and arguably for any of them) it is hard to seperate normal citizen and settler
that is not all of what accounts for 2 citizenship holding, For example if I moved to Canada, as a Yank, and had a child, my child would be born with dule citizenship, even though my child was not forign born as they had Jus Sanguin citizenship from the USA and Jus Soili (yes I know I miss spelled both of them) from Canada… and that would carry on, theoreticaly in perpituity (though realisticly at some point through the generations if they stayed in Canada at some point someone would forget to tell the USA about the new citizen and functionaly the dule citizenship would stop)
I am also aware that you do not have to be first generation to be a settler in a settler colony, I was trying to give the person I was replying to the benifit of the doubt in what they where trying to say, IE: the people who where born their, and do not have another citizenship to move to another country with are innocent civilians, as I mentioned it is hard in a settler colony to define between a “citizen” and a “settler” as a wise friend told me once, settler colonialism really F*cks with how nation states work
Consider this, this side made many genocides over the years, if genocides it the first time it wouldn’t have the chance to do to another, ans we would end up with only 2, ever heard of killing the killer?
Edit: there’s obviously better solutions than genocides but the one the world is currently doing isn’t.
There is a difference between Gaza and Israel, and I just happened to come across a comment I can copy & paste:
"There is no such as a “civilian” in an occupying colony. Half the population in “israel” are military conscripts, and most of the other half are fascists and settlers just the same; there are very few people in the colony actually plotting/fighting against the state.
By your logic, the Viet Cong, which used the same tactics (attacking villages, taking hostages, using tunnels and guerilla warfare) and had the same goals (driving out foreign occupiers and reuniting their country) as Hamas, and the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, which (regardless of its intentions and goals) resulted in the deaths of thousands of Jews at the hands of the nazis similar to how Palestinians are being killed by “israel” now after the Oct 7 assault, were “terrorists” (whatever that even means).
Hamas is currently the largest Palestinian armed resistance group (and was even directly elected by the people of Gaza at that) and deserves everyone’s support."
Whoever wrote that comment has an inaccurate grasp of the demographics of Israel and is using an argument Bin Laden made for justifying killing all those people on 9/11 - he felt everyone physically located in the US should die. It’s abhorrent and it’s advocating a crime against humanity.
Hamas was last elected about 17 years ago when half the current pupulation of Gaza were aged 1 or not born yet. Whether you support them or not is up to you but going around claiming they represent everyone in Gaza is just playing into the IDF narrative.
Is it genocide if the people you’re killing aren’t innocent? as in, they willingly migrated to a country that exists on stolen land with the original population deprived of human rights behind a wall, and not utilizing the fact it’s the only democratic nation in area to change that, in addition to calling said original population human animals and demanding their death because you’re the choosen people deserve this land, and repeating that cycle for 70 years.
Kill the killer to prevent more killing down the line, you don’t need a religion to you that, it’s common sense, if you took someone’s life we take yours, if killing was left unpunished people would continue to kill, just google: “US genocide” and you would understand.
having the populations of all your neighboring countries want you dead since your creation should tell you something is wrong, if the middle east was democratic Israel wouldn’t exist.
This makes people on lemmy say things like “religion bad” like religions aren’t the source of most modern definitions of ‘ethics’, and makes people on lemmy promote atheism.
Am I promoting genocide? no, I’ll tell you how we can solve the problem once and for all, disband the Israeli army, send most of the population back to their home nations, and viola, is this logistically realistic? it’s as realistic as the way jews killed everyone 70 years ago and made Israel appear from nowhere and migrating that much people from all over the world it. If some jew objects, we just shoot him for terrorism, just like how he would treat others.
Also the US committed war crimes against everyone but jews, it would allow the US to 100% the war crimes book.
Okay, how do you suggest we deal with the occupation then? Bomb Yemen? Insult Natenyahu? Try and onvince the Arabs - 400,000,000+ people - who would kill to trade their life for the death of an Israeli soldier to normalize with Israel? None of these worked if you get my meaning.
that will never happen aslong as the US 1) has veto power 2) has any influence at all
and I am not the person you are replying to, however, all none violent means have been tried, Isn’treal has been doing this genocide sense the begining, this is the only option these opressed people have, and they have the right to an armed uprising, to save themselves, to free themselves from not just an opression, but from a genocide, from extenction.
@CooperRedArmyDog just to be clear I am not arguing against the use of force. It can be a legitimate form of resistance to violent colonial oppression.
The person above wants to genocide the civilian population of Israel, that’s what I’m arguing against.
they have the right to an armed uprising, to save themselves
It’s not really working out for them. 1.5% of the Palestinian population has been genocided and the genocidaires are showing no sign of stopping. There’s a huge power imbalance.
Like you say, the UN’s hands are tied while the US vetos.
But I do not think calls to genocide the Israelis are constructive or responsible, or even sane.
Removed by mod
I don’t think the answer to genocide is more genocide.
Removed by mod
Israeli citizens are not terrorists…. The Israeli government, the IDF and the settlers are.
Removed by mod
Well i would just like to point out that Israel is claiming they are targeting military terrorists and infrastructure.
I’m saying that Israel committing genocide on the Palestinian people is not an excuse for others to commit genocide on Israel.
Removed by mod
Say you’re a trash human without saying you’re a trash human
Removed by mod
@Tremble This.
I can’t believe we’re having to have this conversation. All genocide is terrible, jfc.
I mean, I think I understand what you are trying to say, the people who where born in Isn’treal, with an Isn’treal passport are not settlers, and while I can agree in principle, that is really not the case for the vast majority of them, the majority of citizens of Isn’treal have a second citizenship and moved in. For a settler colony so new (and arguably for any of them) it is hard to seperate normal citizen and settler
@CooperRedArmyDog people don’t have to be first generation settlers in order for a settler colony to count as a settler society.
Objectively wrong, I’d encourage you to look this stat up on something factual like the this OECD website page or similar.
Israel usually has a foreign-born population of around 25% - which is about the same as the figure for Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.
that is not all of what accounts for 2 citizenship holding, For example if I moved to Canada, as a Yank, and had a child, my child would be born with dule citizenship, even though my child was not forign born as they had Jus Sanguin citizenship from the USA and Jus Soili (yes I know I miss spelled both of them) from Canada… and that would carry on, theoreticaly in perpituity (though realisticly at some point through the generations if they stayed in Canada at some point someone would forget to tell the USA about the new citizen and functionaly the dule citizenship would stop)
I am also aware that you do not have to be first generation to be a settler in a settler colony, I was trying to give the person I was replying to the benifit of the doubt in what they where trying to say, IE: the people who where born their, and do not have another citizenship to move to another country with are innocent civilians, as I mentioned it is hard in a settler colony to define between a “citizen” and a “settler” as a wise friend told me once, settler colonialism really F*cks with how nation states work
Where is the calling for genocide in the comment you responded to? Vaporizing a genocide machine is genocide now?
Removed by mod
Consider this, this side made many genocides over the years, if genocides it the first time it wouldn’t have the chance to do to another, ans we would end up with only 2, ever heard of killing the killer?
Edit: there’s obviously better solutions than genocides but the one the world is currently doing isn’t.
This is the exact reasoning that Israel is using to justify their genocide in Gaza.
It’s like people get 90% of the way towards “genocide is bad” and then add the asterisk “unless we do it.”
There is a difference between Gaza and Israel, and I just happened to come across a comment I can copy & paste:
"There is no such as a “civilian” in an occupying colony. Half the population in “israel” are military conscripts, and most of the other half are fascists and settlers just the same; there are very few people in the colony actually plotting/fighting against the state.
By your logic, the Viet Cong, which used the same tactics (attacking villages, taking hostages, using tunnels and guerilla warfare) and had the same goals (driving out foreign occupiers and reuniting their country) as Hamas, and the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, which (regardless of its intentions and goals) resulted in the deaths of thousands of Jews at the hands of the nazis similar to how Palestinians are being killed by “israel” now after the Oct 7 assault, were “terrorists” (whatever that even means).
Hamas is currently the largest Palestinian armed resistance group (and was even directly elected by the people of Gaza at that) and deserves everyone’s support."
Whoever wrote that comment has an inaccurate grasp of the demographics of Israel and is using an argument Bin Laden made for justifying killing all those people on 9/11 - he felt everyone physically located in the US should die. It’s abhorrent and it’s advocating a crime against humanity.
Hamas was last elected about 17 years ago when half the current pupulation of Gaza were aged 1 or not born yet. Whether you support them or not is up to you but going around claiming they represent everyone in Gaza is just playing into the IDF narrative.
Removed by mod
Is it genocide if the people you’re killing aren’t innocent? as in, they willingly migrated to a country that exists on stolen land with the original population deprived of human rights behind a wall, and not utilizing the fact it’s the only democratic nation in area to change that, in addition to calling said original population human animals and demanding their death because you’re the choosen people deserve this land, and repeating that cycle for 70 years.
Kill the killer to prevent more killing down the line, you don’t need a religion to you that, it’s common sense, if you took someone’s life we take yours, if killing was left unpunished people would continue to kill, just google: “US genocide” and you would understand.
having the populations of all your neighboring countries want you dead since your creation should tell you something is wrong, if the middle east was democratic Israel wouldn’t exist.
This makes people on lemmy say things like “religion bad” like religions aren’t the source of most modern definitions of ‘ethics’, and makes people on lemmy promote atheism.
Am I promoting genocide? no, I’ll tell you how we can solve the problem once and for all, disband the Israeli army, send most of the population back to their home nations, and viola, is this logistically realistic? it’s as realistic as the way jews killed everyone 70 years ago and made Israel appear from nowhere and migrating that much people from all over the world it. If some jew objects, we just shoot him for terrorism, just like how he would treat others.
Also the US committed war crimes against everyone but jews, it would allow the US to 100% the war crimes book.
Yes that’s still a genocide my dude. You need to rethink.
Okay, how do you suggest we deal with the occupation then? Bomb Yemen? Insult Natenyahu? Try and onvince the Arabs - 400,000,000+ people - who would kill to trade their life for the death of an Israeli soldier to normalize with Israel? None of these worked if you get my meaning.
I would like to see the international community enforce international law, for a start.
Can you really not see that wanting to murder civillian populations and children is wrong?
that will never happen aslong as the US 1) has veto power 2) has any influence at all
and I am not the person you are replying to, however, all none violent means have been tried, Isn’treal has been doing this genocide sense the begining, this is the only option these opressed people have, and they have the right to an armed uprising, to save themselves, to free themselves from not just an opression, but from a genocide, from extenction.
@CooperRedArmyDog just to be clear I am not arguing against the use of force. It can be a legitimate form of resistance to violent colonial oppression.
The person above wants to genocide the civilian population of Israel, that’s what I’m arguing against.
It’s not really working out for them. 1.5% of the Palestinian population has been genocided and the genocidaires are showing no sign of stopping. There’s a huge power imbalance.
Like you say, the UN’s hands are tied while the US vetos.
But I do not think calls to genocide the Israelis are constructive or responsible, or even sane.