After 11 weeks of war in Gaza, the Israeli military campaign against Hamas now sits among the deadliest and most destructive in history, experts say.
Israel says it has two goals: destroy Hamas and rescue the 129 hostages still held by militants […] but some families of hostages worry that the bombing endangers their loved ones. Hostages released during a weeklong cease-fire last month recounted that their captors moved them from place to place to avoid Israeli bombardment. Hamas has claimed that several hostages died from Israeli bombs, though the claims could not be verified.
I have to believe that everyone in Israel knows that “continue this balls to the wall military campaign to destroy Hamas AND free all the hostages! These go hand in hand” is cakeism lip service. Every minimally rational person should be able to understand that when facing a foe who is holding hostages, if you commit to destroying that foe by military means then you have effectively forfeited the lives of the hostages, barring an outstanding stroke of tactical genius or a lucky break (so far Israeli soldiers have been able to rescue one hostage by force). Conversely, if you decide to sit down with that foe and say “all right, score one for you, let us cut a deal and get all our hostages back”, then your foe will make sure to negotiate terms such that you will not be destroying anything or anyone (Hamas mistakenly thought they had this sorted out with the first ceasefire, which is why now they demand total cessation of all hostilities as a precondition for any further deal). But speaking this truth out loud in Israel these days is just not palatable; instead the public demands to hear these “do this and that” fairy tales.
The IDF personally pulled the triggers to shoot and kill three of the hostages, who had scaped Hamas and were waving white flags made from their shirts. One of them was a tall white red headed man, yet the soldiers claim that they thought they were Hamas militants. They confused a read head scared man pleading in Hebrew with an Arab man.
It’s obvious the ROE of Israel is murder everyone in Gaza. The genocide is not a bonus for the Zionists, it’s the goal. Hostages are political pawns for Netanyahu. The Israeli state is who cares the least about the hostages.
One of them was a tall white red headed man, yet the soldiers claim that they thought they were Hamas militants. They confused a read head scared man pleading in Hebrew with an Arab man.
It reminds me of this:
Others, including survivors of the attack, have rejected these conclusions and maintain that the attack was deliberate.
Bringing up the USS Liberty incident, like bringing up crime statistics in the US, is less the great argument you think it is and more of an ideological calling card. Anyone who actually cares about morals, decency, and the best interests of the civilized world wouldn’t honestly decide that the discussion would be best guided forward by going back in history to cherry pick this one incident that occurred nearly 60 years ago.
EDIT: The upvote / downvote ratio on this comment should tell you everything you need to know about the population breakdown here. People who criticize Israel because of the actual things that Israel does will bring up the '67 expansion, or the high blood price paid in Gaza, or the blockade, or the current extremist government, or whatever else. The USS Liberty is a cynical rhetorical instrument, not a building block of any sane person’s actually, honestly held opinion. Anyone who posts or upvotes this 60 year old incident that Israel has apologized and paid reparations for “because oh isn’t it worrying, isn’t it telling how bad of an ally Israel was to the US that time” is concern trolling and hiding their power level. Simple as.
Anyone who actually cares about morals, decency, and the best interests of the civilized world wouldn’t honestly decide that the discussion would be best guided forward by going back in history to cherry pick this one incident that occurred nearly 60 years ago.
You’re right; I wouldn’t.
From 2019 (bold added for emphasis):
More than 6,000 unarmed demonstrators were shot by military snipers, week after week at the protest sites by the separation fence.
The Commission investigated every killing at the designated demonstration sites by the Gaza separation fence on official protest days. The investigation covered the period from the start of the protests until 31 December 2018. 189 Palestinians were killed during the demonstrations inside this period. The Commission found that Israeli Security Forces killed 183 of these protesters with live ammunition. Thirty-five of these fatalities were children, while three were clearly marked paramedics, and two were clearly marked journalists.
Source: United Nations, via Internet Archive
EDIT: From Dec. 21, 2023:
The New York-based CPJ (Committee to Protect Journalists) said at least 68 journalists and other media workers had been killed in Gaza, Israel and southern Lebanon since the Hamas cross-border attack on 7 October and subsequent Israeli assault.
“More journalists have been killed in the first 10 weeks of the Israel-Gaza war than have ever been killed in a single country over an entire year,” it said.
“CPJ is particularly concerned about an apparent pattern of targeting of journalists and their families by the Israeli military. In at least one case, a journalist was killed while clearly wearing press insignia in a location where no fighting was taking place. In at least two other cases, journalists reported receiving threats from Israeli officials and Israel Defense Forces officers before their family members were killed.”
I understand your anger, but I feel compelled to make some remarks.
The IDF did personally pull the trigger to shoot and kill three of the hostages who were, at the time, waving white flags made from their shirts. This event is surely very telling, and was also immediately considered a catastrophe, with Israeli responses on all ends of the spectrum. On the more sane end you have the official statement by the IDF chief of staff, who didn’t mince words about this:
“You see two people, they have their hands up and no shirts — take two seconds,” IDF Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Herzi Halevi told soldiers in Gaza on Sunday. Halevi said a day earlier that the soldiers who shot the three had opened fire in breach of IDF protocols.
“And I want to tell you something no less important,” Halevi continued. “What if it is two Gazans with a white flag who come out to surrender? Do we shoot at them? Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
“Even those who fought and now put down their weapons and raise their hands — we capture them, we don’t shoot them. We extract a lot of intelligence from the prisoners we have; we have over 1,000 already,” he told the soldiers.
Halevi added: “We don’t shoot them because the IDF doesn’t shoot a person who raises his hands. This is a strength, not a weakness.”
Now, given the actual event which speaks for itself, there is obviously a very deep disconnect between what the chief of the IDF touts as policy here and what the soldiers end up doing in practice. You could posit that the chief is speaking out of his ass, but the more probable theory is that higher up on the hierarchy some officers are sincerely convinced that they are leading the charge of the Most Moral Army in the World™, and meanwhile some hefty portion of the boots on the ground have decided to, like you’ve phrased it, kill everything that moves and fuck the rules of engagement. I don’t know if I would go so far as to say this proves such a grand statement such as “genocide is the goal of the Zionists”. Do the events of Oct 7 prove that “genocide is the goal of the Palestinians”? What are we supposed to do with this conclusion? Does it lead anywhere productive?
The hostages are not political pawns for Netanyahu, they are a huge headache for him. Netanyahu could very well easily continue the military campaign just on the promise of dealing with Hamas alone; he would in fact much prefer this, and would like nothing more than to be rid of the constant shouting about the hostages. It’s an open secret that the hostage families have effectively thrown in their lot with Netanyahu’s most fierce opposition; they’re constantly shouting for “a deal NOW” and “negotiate with Hamas NOW”, to the degree that this has become somewhat of a wedge issue in Israel, you’re expected to be a “bring back the hostages, stop the war, reach a deal now, kick out Netanyahu, left winger” or a “push on, let the chips fall where they may, destroy Hamas, keep Netanyahu, right winger”. I am exaggerating but really not by much, and some paper op-eds have written on this topic extensively. The state, for what it’s worth, evidently cares about this issue a lot more than Netanyahu himself does, or you wouldn’t have had the first ceasefire in the first place.
The Israel military command can scream and shout “We don’t target civilians indiscriminately”, “we are minimizing civilian casualties”, “we didn’t mean to target xyz”, “we are giving them safe places to refuge”, “we are giving aid” all they want but that doesn’t change the situation on the ground.
1% of the entire population of Gaza killed, nearly all hospitals destroyed, hunger rampant throughout, settlers with military escort razing farms, stealing land and ransacking people’s homes, deliberately targeting clearly marked unarmed journalists, launching attacks against areas civilians were told were safe, on and on.
Virtually all of this has happened without any real punishment from Israel’s military command. This is tacit endorsement in my books.
You could posit that the chief is speaking out of his ass, but the more probable theory is that higher up on the hierarchy some officers are sincerely convinced that they are leading the charge of the Most Moral Army in the World™, and meanwhile some hefty portion of the boots on the ground have decided to, like you’ve phrased it, kill everything that moves and fuck the rules of engagement.
No way. This is the Hannibal directive at play, at least indirectly.
This feels like overthinking it.
Of course the IDF chief of staff quoted is going to say their policy is not to shoot people surrendering. That’s a war crime. You don’t say that’s your policy.
No one at the top of a military thinks their forces are free from misconduct.
If rules of engagement are being ignored large scale with no repercussions, the IDF has severe problems. But it’s been reported since the start that use of force rules seem to be much looser.
And let’s not forget that the defense minister is an openly pro-genocide murderous right wing lunatic.
The most obvious explanation for Israeli soldiers continually killing so many civilians, including on their own side, is that the IDF lets them.
Removed by mod
You are wishing for so much death and destruction, you know.
That little comment is really damning of your morals. I really hope you get some help. Fuck you.
What was the comment? they must have erased it.
I reported it for terroristic threats. They were basically wishing for more bombing, with specifics.
I’m glad I missed whatever it was they wrote.
I think you replied to the “person” who wrote the comment.
Russia wish they had the murderous, ruthless religious indoctrination Israel has.
Ah look those little bombs were going to go moldy. Better to be used up in some recipe than wasting the money.
Experts say
I mean if you read beyond the title it explains what that means.
