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I mean, doesn’t every society attempt to morally justify their wars of conquest within the framework of their own social mores?
I can’t exactly think of a society who thought of themselves as evil for expanding their holdings…
It’s less about good and evil, and more about justification. You have to remember that the pre-modern period was still very much a time of naked self-interest (as opposed to obfuscated self-interest) - it wasn’t so much that the non-Roman peoples thought of themselves as evil (or that the Romans thought of non-Roman peoples as thinking of themselves as evil), but that they saw less need to create elaborate justifications for participating in what was a common behavior of society at the time.
When the Gauls and Germanics went on raids, their thinking wasn’t “Dohohoho, time to commit some CRIMES”, but rather, “This is the way the world works, I’m taking an opportunity”, the way that a merchant might eye a good deal. The Romans, if you will, saw there as being an additional ‘barrier’ of a need for justification to go and murder and plunder their enemies without the slightest hint of conscience - typically “They broke a specific clause in a treaty” or “They refused to deliver justice to a Roman citizen”.
You have to remember that the pre-modern period was still very much a time of naked self-interest
As opposed to now? I think believing we are inherently different than ancient people is a byproduct of how we record and review historical context.
When the US invaded Iraq, it was professing to “spread freedom”. A couple decades later and it’s pretty apparent that freedom was a pretext to fulfill thinly veiled self interest.
When the Gauls and Germanics went on raids, their thinking wasn’t “Dohohoho, time to commit some CRIMES”, but rather, “This is the way the world works, I’m taking an opportunity”, the way that a merchant might eye a good deal
How exactly are we determining this? Thats probably what the Romans thought of the Germanic tribes and the Gauls, but we don’t exactly have a lot of primary sources from the people we’re talking about. Of course the empire is going to boil down their enemies motives while guiding their own.
The Romans, if you will, saw there as being an additional ‘barrier’ of a need for justification to go and murder and plunder their enemies without the slightest hint of conscience - typically
I don’t really see any evidence of this… Most of their justifications were just to convince others in the ruling class to get on board with one person’s or a groups personal vendetta or get rich quick scheme.
The Romans didn’t really need a justification to rape and pillage their own cities, let alone others.
As opposed to now? I think believing we are inherently different than ancient people is a byproduct of how we record and review historical context.
… believing that we’re culturally similar to ancient peoples is an incredibly dangerous and distorting way to view the past.
When the US invaded Iraq, it was professing to “spread freedom”. A couple decades later and it’s pretty apparent that freedom was a pretext to fulfill thinly veiled self interest.
Where to begin?
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“Obfuscated self-interest” was specified.
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The justification for the illegal invasion of Iraq wasn’t to ‘spread freedom’, it was a (false) allegation of violation of international law regarding possession of WMDs.
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What self-interest was fulfilled by invading Iraq? Ideology was a bigger factor there than any conception of national self-interest.
How exactly are we determining this? Thats probably what the Romans thought of the Germanic tribes and the Gauls, but we don’t exactly have a lot of primary sources from the people we’re talking about. Of course the empire is going to boil down their enemies motives while guiding their own.
Because the Greeks and the Persians wrote of their own motivations in largely the same way - largely sans justification. Because both later and earlier European civilizations wrote of their motivations in the same way. Because just-war theory doesn’t re-emerge until the ascendency of Christianity and Islam, and even then, it is usually ignored in internecine faith conflicts until the 16th century AD.
I don’t really see any evidence of this… Most of their justifications were just to convince others in the ruling class to get on board with one person’s or a groups personal vendetta or get rich quick scheme.
What evidence would you accept? How much should I fetch for you?
The Romans didn’t really need a justification to rape and pillage their own cities, let alone others.
What
Obfuscated self-interest" was specified.
Right, But you also claimed that other societies at the time didn’t do the same…
My point was that all societies thinly veil their self interest.
justification for the illegal invasion of Iraq wasn’t to ‘spread freedom’, it was a (false) allegation of violation of international law regarding possession of WMDs.
Lol, a bit of a pedantic argument. It and Afghanistan were obviously marketed as a stand for “freedom” at the time.
What self-interest was fulfilled by invading Iraq? Ideology was a bigger factor there than any conception of national self-interest.
You’re asking what self interest the Bush administration had for invading Iraq…? How much time do you have?
Because the Greeks and the Persians wrote of their own motivations in largely the same way - largely sans justification.
First of all, Persians and Greek often justified their conquest via the gods, or nationalism.
Secondly Motivation and justifications can be the same thing depending on the social mores of the society.
Lastly, you are utilizing examples of societies where the only people who were writing within the historical context were part of the ruling structure. Thats akin to getting acess to the email of Dick Cheney’s actual motivations for invading Iraq vs the story they told the media.
What evidence would you accept? How much should I fetch for you?
Any would be a good start?
What
During the year of 4 emperors Cremona was occupied by vitellian troops, they battled an army outside Cremona led by Antonius and lost. Cremona immediately surrendered and was subsequently raped and pillaged for no good reason.
“Antonius then attacked Cremona, which surrendered. Cremona was sacked and then burned by the victorious troops over four days; many residents were raped, murdered and robbed.[3] Antonius was embarrassed by the episode and forbade the keeping of Cremonans as slaves, resulting in many being murdered by their captors to evade punishment.[4]”
Edit: accidentally skipped your first claim
believing that we’re culturally similar to ancient peoples is an incredibly dangerous and distorting way to view the past.
This is kinda ridiculous considering that our legal and political bodies are highly influenced specifically by the Romans, who were in turn highly influenced by the Greek and Persians.
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I can’t exactly think of a society who thought of themselves as evil for expanding their holdings…
Well, what about… the Galactic Empire under Emperor Palpatine?
I only fight just wars, therefore all my enemies are ontologically evil therefore all actions against them are justified
Explanation: The Romans placed a relatively high value on the idea of Iustum Bellum - just war. Now, this was certainly not always adhered to - and furthermore, was often very far from ‘just’ as we would recognize it. But the Romans regarded the process of morally justifying their wars as something that made them superior to barbarian polities.
Huh. TIL. Ty.
