A decision to negotiate over the heads of the Ukrainians would reveal just how Trump sees Ukraine and Europe.
Disclaimer: The article linked is from a single source with a single perspective. Make sure to cross-check information against multiple sources to get a comprehensive view on the situation.
The article only summarizes it shortly, but the parallels to the Munich Agreement from 1938 are really scary.
Hitler’s aim was to take over all of Czechoslovakia by breaking it apart. The subject of the Munich Agreement was the Sudetenland, the region bordering Germany. Before there were some votes and local political forces expressing the wish of the German minority in the Sudetenland to create an independent state (See the parallels with DNR, LNR and Crimea). This was used by Hitler to justify taking over the region. Suddenly it wasn’t about independence anymore, but about inclusion into Germany.
The Czechoslovakian government in Prague obviously hated the idea, but they were not invited to the talks in Munich. Only afterwards were they made aware of the decision that would be imposed on their nation. Who was invited was fellow fascist Mussolini from Italy, as well as France and UK, who gave in and signed this agreement, giving international support to Germany just taking over parts of neighboring nations.
Their reasoning was, if they were to disagree, Hitler would assert his will by force and take Czechoslovakia militarily, starting a large European war (that is also the reason Prague was forced to accept the decision: the alternative was a war they could never win, they could not count on any outside help). This was the so-called appeasement policy by the UK. They bought “peace” in exchange for territories they didn’t own but felt the right to decide over. We all know how this heavily-priced peace turned out. At most it gave the allied forces one more year to prepare for WWII.
I see a better parallel with the partition of Poland in Molotov-Ribbentrop pact with these talks. The Munich Agreement was the Minsk agreements and letting russia have Crimea.
This isn’t a peace deal, this is a conspiracy. Ukraine has zero obligation to accept any of this. However they will have to start making considerations about a Polish Underground state type of ordeal. This fighting is not going to stop for a decade more. The region is going to resemble fucking Afghanistan.
. Russia has no intention of stopping and they might as well tell MAGA to go fuck themselves, and Europe better get ready to join.
I hope Ukraine wins and turns on America. I would love to see Trump’s face.
I will not be the least bit surprised if there’s a future in 5 years where Ukraine no longer exists as a state, and Bitter Ukrainian refugees commit terrorism attacks against the United States.
There is a reason Treachery is the lowest circle of hell in dante’s inferno.
Fuck Russia!
And Fuck Trumpist USA.
Indeed.
This isn’t a peace agreement, this is a rehabilitate Russia agreement.
The whole goal is for Trump to run cover for Putin and say" if you do this we’ll remove all the sanctions", all the while not changing the ground war at all. (And probably throw sanctions on Ukraine at the same time).
Ukraine will resist, Europe will resist.
there isn’t enough rope in the world for the reckoning that’s warranted.
And now watch the Neonazi come out of the wood work “oooh, they are threatening violence, law enforcement, protect us from the meanies”…back in the world wars, Nazis died. That was their role, to die like the scum they are, to make a point. We never should have stopped. We should have treated any soure of Nazis as combatants and bombed them.
It isn’t a peace deal.
It is a deal to bully someone else together.
Time for Germany to build nuclear weapon stockpiles. Fuck this shit with the USA and Russia. Their Saudi Arabia meeting was another 2018 Helsinki shitshow.
Considering they’re stopping all nuclear I really doubt it
History is full of such examples
If the Poles and Czechs haven’t figured out who their enemies are with this, nothing else will help.
AP headline: “Russia and US agree to work toward ending Ukraine war in a remarkable diplomatic shift”
They mention that Ukraine isn’t even at the table several paragraphs in. Jolly.
And that’s still too left wing for the trump white house.
He should crash the party. Suitably guarded of course
With a big bomb. Israel showed that tens of thousands of innocent people can be deemed as an acceptable collateral damage if some terrorists are dead, and Putin is a terrorist, so it should be perfectly acceptable to ace the motherfucher with a big bomb
When elephants fight, the grass gets trampled.
Elephants are intelligent.
There’s a lot of different kinds of intelligence.
Yeah but they all have some commonality, it’s dumb as shit bud.
I don’t think Ukraine will get Donbas and Crimea back. The Donetsk & Luhansk republics would violently resist any attempt by Kyiv to absorb them back into Ukraine.
The Donetsk & Luhansk republics would violently resist any attempt by Kyiv to absorb them back into Ukraine.
LOL
You know that whole rebellion thing was created by Russia right?
Indeed and most of the Russian supporting rebels are fertilizing Ukraine’s soil.
Look, however it started, Russia has had significant portions of those territories for a decade. They’ve been arresting dissidents, running propaganda, and making their roots as deep as possible. It’s not going to be easy for Ukraine to just resume administration of those areas.
I live in a country that was occupied by Nazi Germany, where the Nazis did the exact same things and put the local Nazi sympathizers in charge of local administration. It didn’t turn us into a country with deep Nazi roots.
We just imprisoned and shot those fuckers after the war.
I hope it’s that easy. I fear it’s not.
It’s funny to me how both sides say this about the other. There were two rebellions in Ukraine backed by foreign powers, and which one you think is legitimate and which one was created by foreign meddling doesn’t seem to have anything to do with any facts on the ground, it’s entirely about which global hegemon you support.
In reality, both the succession movement and Euromaidan involved a combination of foreign agitation and popular support, and it’s nowhere near as black and white as either side pretends.
Fuck your disingenuous bothesidesism.
Western support of Euromaidan (what you erroneously call “meddling”) isn’t remotely comparable to the straight acts of war that Russia committed in the Donbas.
Of course not. It’s not meddling when we do it, because we’re the good guys.
Our support of an organic democratic movement to overthrow the old corrupt regime, their meddling support of proxies to undermine the legitimate government.
Hey fuckwit, you didn’t reply to a single thing I said.
Europe supported the Ukrainian people vocally, but verbally during the Maidan.
Russia armed and funded extreme Russian nationalists, you know like actual nazi scum, and sent them to Ukraine led by FSB officers, controlled directly from the Kremlin. Nobody in the Donbas asked for this, except for retarded nazi scum.
Ah fuck, I just see that you are lemmy.ml tankie scum. Of course you are siding with autocratic fascists. blocked
Yes, I do know that. What difference does it make to my point?
Everything, because the people of D&L will not violently resist. They were peaceful citizens of Ukraine, who overwhelmingly voted for Ukrainian independence in 1991.
Define the “people”. Currently, the separatists in charge in the republics are openly pro-Russian and welcomed the annexation with open arms. They won’t step down quietly and accept reintegration into Ukraine. In the event that Ukraine officially claims victory in Donbas, there will be an insurgency there for years, backed by the Kremlin. There’s already been one since 2014.
I hope you don’t believe it won’t be similar the other way around, because it will. Citizens loyal to Ukraine won’t just roll over and accept the annexation no matter what the US and Russian regimes are saying. They’ll most likely keep fighting as they do now.
Honestly, the best that could happen to resolve the issue and not causing it to become a century-long problem with “generational hate” fueling a lasting conflict would be for EU countries as well as other allies (Australia, Japan, South Korea etc) to go all-in and keep supporting Ukraine, in a way it overwhelms Russia. Of course I know how unrealistic that sounds right now…
Yes, unfortunately the situation with the conquered territories seems pretty grim.
There will be violence no matter who’s in charge. There are people violently resisting Russian rule in those regions right now. It’s not going to be easy for anyone.
Ukraine wasn’t invited to the decision to fight a proxy war either, or have its government overthrown in the Maidan Coup. And when they attempted peace talks before, their western handlers ordered them to keep fighting.
Ukrainians: Fight to defend their country from Russian attack
Western countries who don’t like what Russia is doing help Ukrainians
Some silly person online: YOU’RE FIGHTING AN AMERICAN PROXY WAR
They’re just trying to defend their country.
And when they attempted peace talks before, their western handlers ordered them to keep fighting.
What’s this referring to?
Ahh. The old hasbara strategy of pretending nothing happened before that. Nice.
Ahh. The old hasbara strategy of pretending nothing happened before that. Nice.
I don’t know what that means tbh.
Link
The article and the relevant section from Wikipedia both describe how the talks failed on multiple issues, with one part being the refusal of giving security guarantees.
Speaking further and explaining Kyiv’s refusal to accept the proposal, Arakhamia said that it would require a constitutional change, given that Ukraine’s Constitution states its intention to become a NATO member.
Additionally, he emphasized a lack of trust in the Russian position.
“There is no, and there was no, trust in the Russians that they would do it. That could only be done if there were security guarantees.”
Arahamiya clarified that signing such an agreement without guarantees would have left Ukraine vulnerable to a second incursion.
The idea that a Boris Johnson (of all people) saying “shouldn’t sign anything with them at all – and let’s just fight” was their “Western handlers ordering them to fight” is pretty funny.
So you believe the Ukrainian officials confirming this are lying?
The Wikipedia entries are maintained by western propagandists. I wouldn’t put much faith in the credibility.
I don’t know who Ukrainian official you mean, other than that I quoted same person as your article did (Arahamiya/Arakhamia). In those links he isn’t confirming your take that “Boris Johnson (of all people) saying “shouldn’t sign anything with them at all – and let’s just fight” was their “Western handlers ordering them to fight””.
The Wikipedia article has links to their sources (news articles) who come back to the same things said in your linked article (from The European Conservative). It’s just that the article you linked gives a lot more weight (an outright claim of being forced) to the Boris episode than many other sources or from what I’ve seen, Arahamiya/Arakhamia (their source) does himself. He doesn’t seem to have said what the title of your article (about being forced) claims. Or if he did, they didn’t quote that part.
The Wikipedia entry referencing news articles doesn’t mean much if the articles themselves are pushing western propaganda. Especially considering how many news agencies are (or were) on the payroll of USAID, I wouldn’t expect to see them challenge the NATO narrative.
Giving more weight to Wikipedia articles than Ukrainian officials is definitely… an interesting choice.
They’re all referencing the same interview and the same quotes from the same person… None of them seems to disagree on what he said as such. He just literally doesn’t in any of the quoted parts in any of the articles linked claim or confirm what your news article claimed it confirms, they’re just making a claim of their own on the meaning of his words and their own opinion. That’s the difference.
Hell, you linked to The European Conservative which is an outright even in the name politically biased news source. But it’s the same quotes on all of them, so that part doesn’t matter since the actual interview is there.
Giving more weight to Wikipedia articles than Ukrainian officials is definitely… an interesting choice.
It’s the same exact official that’s being quoted in all of the news articles. How are you not getting this… The official being quoted just doesn’t say what you claimed he did. You saw Wikipedia and thought that’s your way out of your claim but missed the whole thing of it being literally the same person with everyone referencing literally the same interview lol.
Europe is about to learn the deveststing reality of your home being picked apart in peace deals or whatever by foreign superpowers without any real say. I don’t feel bad for Ukraine in the slightest, they supported Israel since the early days, and felt no remorse, I feel no remorse if all of Ukraine was annexed
I’m pretty sure Ukraine is already used to being invaded and picked apart by superpowers without any real say
By superpowers plural? Today yeah, 3 years ago, also sorta yeah but more hidden. Besides Ukraine wants to be aligned with the west and now America and Russia are the only two who have any say
I was thinking more about their history of being occupied for the last millennium, invaded by the mongols, then occupied and partitioned by many states, including the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, the Ottomans, the Austrians, then finally conquered by the Russian tzars, then having their independence dreams being shattered by the Soviets, then being invaded by the Nazis and now by Russian Federation, with the latest nail being Trump’s actions.
So yeah, superpowers plural
I see what you mean and I guess it’s because of it’s vital position connection mainland Europe to the steppes of Eurasia and into Anatolia.
It’s the same with my ethnic region of the Punjab so Im aware of what happens with such a history
