Wanting to leave NATO, withholding weapons from Ukraine and talking to Putin isn’t exactly “working against” fascism. That’s very much the Neville Chamberlain approach … but even he came to his sense after the full scale invasion started. Can’t say the same for die Linke.
That seems even more revisionist. If anything I’d have expected it from Winston “I believe in Aryan race science” Churchill.
Chamberlain was buying time for rearmament. It wasn’t actually necessary and it was, in fact, pretty fucking stupid because Germany was rearming faster than France and Britain put together, and his betrayal of Czechoslovakia with their fortified border was even more galling in face of it, but the idea wasn’t to ally with Germany as far as I’ve seen anyone claim.
The British spent the entire 1930s claiming that Britain and Nazi Germany will be a bulwark against communism and signed three pacts with Hitler which were all directly against the Soviet Union: the Four Powers Pact meant to exclude and isolate the Soviets, the Naval Agreement meant Germany could have a navy up 35% of the British navy meaning it wouldn’t threaten British empire but every country on the Baltic sea… i.e. the Soviet Union, and finally the Munich Betrayal which was understood to be a gesture of a “free hand” (British diplomat’s words not mine) for Hitler to go east.
In spite of these difficulties Lord Halifax and other members of the British Government were fully aware that the Fuhrer had not only achieved a great deal inside Germany herself, but that, by destroying Communism in his country, he had barred its road to Western Europe, and that Germany therefore could rightly be regarded as a bulwark of the West against Bolshevism
In spite of these difficulties Lord Halifax recognized that the Chancellor had not only performed great services in Germany, but also, as he would no doubt feel, had been able by preventing the entry of Communism into his own country, to bar Its passage further West. The Prime Minister held the view that it should be possible to find a solution of out differences by an open exchange of views
When the Soviets liberated Germany they were able to get a huge cache of British diplomatic documents. The Soviets released the above book and Documents And Materials Relating To The Eve Of The Second World War Vol. 2 full to the brim of diplomats praising Nazi Germany as a twin pillar alongside Britain stopping communism.
SPD is just standing by not doing anything (except being corrupt), basically silent complicity. The greens are also not clearly positioning themselves against the anti immigrant hatred, but they are still doing much better than the rest imo.
I agree with you on the SPD, but Habeck was pretty fucking clear that Abschiebung is not the way to go. The Linke on the other hand seems great until you see their position on NATO, rearmament, Russia, and Ukraine…
My dad literally voted for Volt instead of Grüne because “the Grüne was to positive about immigration”
Correctly but, me who is supporting both volt and grüne and even is joining volt in summer, but with volts goal of a united europe,…that seems pretty pro immigration.
Not to mention also them wanting easier immigration.
It’s just stigma against the Grüne; hypocrisy at its purest. In other words: I don’t think he actually cares about immigration, he was just using it as a scapegoat.
I see peoples issues with the linke as largely unimportant. Having 9% of the seats taken by nato critical people is a healthy contra to the overwhelming majority that would never dare to criticize their sometimes criticism worthy decisions. If you never have anyone looking at things from an outside perspective the governement will lose touch with reality.
Fair enough. While I myself wouldn’t vote for them, I do agree that they are by no means evil. Their position certainly may even be valuable, I concede. I don’t want my preferred party (the Grüne) to be the most radical left party, it’s always good to have an even more left party to balance things out. We don’t want to end up like the US, where even moderate things like universal healthcare are viewed as radical in the state. Democracy serves it’s purpose. In other words: you’ve pretty much convinced me (though I would still vote Grüne).
Behave like social democrats, push to fund infrastructure and school upgrades (instead of defunding them), not have a leading candidate that was involved with the biggest tax fraud scheme in recent history, etc
The best way to fight fascism is with meaningful policy thay helps the working class. The best way to help it is proving that liberal democracy consists in getting to choose which party gets to enforce austerity this term
Considering that Putin is the biggest fascist threat for all of Europe, your statement is laughable. The Left agree that Putin is doing bad things in Ukraine and other countries but their message is that the domestic social net is more important than Europe’s survival and all weapon deliveries must stop. Let’s talk instead.
If policies were up to them, they’d be helping fascism almost as much as outright Putin sheep
How is Putin the biggest fascist threat for Europe? Fascism was literally born in Europe and exported elsewhere, we have Nazi and fascist parties getting consistent growth election after election in basically every EU country.
Believe it or not, Europe isn’t at war with Russia, we should be struggling in favour of diplomacy to reduce both our and their military expenditure… which is hard to do when riding hard the NATO wave. Ffs Europe was building gas pipelines with Russia 3.2 years ago, we’re really still capable of separating ourselves from fascist US, reduce military expenditure with fascist Russia, and take care of our own fascist problems.
Yes, we are. From election interference to contamination of drinking water at military bases in Germany, incendiary devices placed on DHL planes, and cutting undersea cables.
we should be struggling in favour of diplomacy to reduce both our and their military expenditure…
Completely naive. Diplomacy only works from a position of strength.
Russia invaded Georgia. No military help, only diplomacy: Led nowhere.
Russia’s 2014 invasion of Ukraine: No military help, only diplomacy. Two Minsk Accords Russia used to build up their military and Russia then happily broke.
reduce military expenditure with fascist Russia, and take care of our own fascist problems.
Russia is part of Europe. Russia is waging genocide in Europe. North Korean soldiers are murdering in Europe. Putin is our fascist problem and people appeasing Putin are also a part of the problem.
I absolutely agree with this, people really seem to not take Putin seriously enough. Putin is already at war with us; he’s literally had people killed in Moabit and invaded Europe. This is not Nato’s fault, it is blatant aggression from Putin, which we need to respond, and should have responded, to accordingly.
If attacks to civilian infrastructure and election interference are enough to claim war, Germany should be in the first instance at war with the US and Ukraine according to that logic, given the explosion of the Nordstream (much more important and evident than reported drinking water alteration or whatever you claim of DHL planes with incendiary devices). Also, Ukraine should be at war with the US for its interference in the election process in 2014, where the democratically elected leader was toppled in a blatant west-backed coup.
You know what Georgia and Ukraine have in common? They’re in the Russian sphere of influence area and have been for the past century. What’s happening is that the west keeps meddling in the Russian sphere of influence and Russia responds in the only way it can: militarily. Russia exhausted the possibilities of diplomacy with the west, warned repeatedly of the consequences of western-alignment of Ukraine (which, again, was done antidemocratically in 2014). That’s the reason why Russia invaded Ukraine, because its diplomacy, soft power and interference were weaker than those of the west in maintaining a sphere of influence. Believe it or not, history didn’t begin in 2022.
The EU should stop the US-directed meddling in Russia’s sphere of influence, and start building relations with the countries that are actually sharing a continent with it. It’s just too racist and too subservient to US interests to do so.
Putin is our fascist problem and people appeasing Putin are also a part of the problem.
Putin is a fascist and that’s a problem, but he’s not the one pushing to cut our healthcare and education and pensions budgets, he does that in Russia. He’s not the one threatening our minorities and our women, he does that in Russia. Europe is more than capable of having fascism by itself without the help of Putin, and blaming everything on a Russian conspiracy is, well, a conspiracy. Russia isn’t nearly powerful or influential enough to be mostly responsible for the fascist problem in the EU, there are a lot more material conditions thst give raise to that.
Stop fucking cheering for war. Stop your warmongering attitudes, stop presenting Europe as the fighting ground for WW3, you DO NOT WANT to see war in the EU, and it’s absofuckinglutely not too late to go back.
Also, Ukraine should be at war with the US for its interference in the election process in 2014, where the democratically elected leader was toppled in a blatant west-backed coup.
And here you are, laying bare that you’re just repeating pro Russian propaganda. Calling the right to protest a coup. Not the occupation of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine is the problem but the people rising up.
He’s not the one threatening our minorities and our women, he does that in Russia.
Yeah, Russia is just there doing some domestic stuff we don’t need to care about. Russia isn’t occupying parts of Ukraine, Moldova, and Georgia. Russia isn’t expanding westwards. Just sit idly by when tens of thousands of non-Russian children get kidnapped, put into reeducation camps, to then fight for Russia. Just sit idly by when Russian agents outright attack German barracks and twiddle your thumbs. Other issues are way more important than caring about that campaign of extermination in Eastern Europe within the borders of an EU-aspirant.
stop presenting Europe as the fighting ground for WW3
Good I didn’t do it. Another Russian propaganda tool is to push back against claims that were never made, acting as if anyone but Russia was the aggressor, trying to move the conversation into Russia’s genocide being just legitimate self-defense.
You’re nothing but a Russian propagandist, whether you’re aware of it or not.
“But wouldn’t a Russian propagandist deny that bad things are happening inside Russia?” the propaganda playbook would make you ask in return, admitting to some criticism but brush it off as a domestic problem far away, trying to cast doubts on your underlying intentions. Russia’s propagandists up the illusion of a broader political landscape. Put the AfD on Germany’s far right, put the BSW on Germany’s far left, put appeasers somewhere in between, and divert attention away from Russia’s attempts at conquering Europe.
Seeing as you’re radicalised against Russia to that degree, any further discussion is useless, I won’t change your mind and you won’t change mine by making false claims of genocide and failing to understand the slightest nuance beyond US state department propaganda
SPD and Grüne are helping the rise of fascism too even if it’s not on purpose. Die Linke are the only ones in parliament actually working against it.
Wanting to leave NATO, withholding weapons from Ukraine and talking to Putin isn’t exactly “working against” fascism. That’s very much the Neville Chamberlain approach … but even he came to his sense after the full scale invasion started. Can’t say the same for die Linke.
That’s such revisionist history. Chamberlain wasn’t appeasing Germany, he was aligning with Germany against Communist Russia.
He wasn’t surrendering, he was allying with fascism.
Source?
That seems even more revisionist. If anything I’d have expected it from Winston “I believe in Aryan race science” Churchill.
Chamberlain was buying time for rearmament. It wasn’t actually necessary and it was, in fact, pretty fucking stupid because Germany was rearming faster than France and Britain put together, and his betrayal of Czechoslovakia with their fortified border was even more galling in face of it, but the idea wasn’t to ally with Germany as far as I’ve seen anyone claim.
The British spent the entire 1930s claiming that Britain and Nazi Germany will be a bulwark against communism and signed three pacts with Hitler which were all directly against the Soviet Union: the Four Powers Pact meant to exclude and isolate the Soviets, the Naval Agreement meant Germany could have a navy up 35% of the British navy meaning it wouldn’t threaten British empire but every country on the Baltic sea… i.e. the Soviet Union, and finally the Munich Betrayal which was understood to be a gesture of a “free hand” (British diplomat’s words not mine) for Hitler to go east.
In spite of these difficulties Lord Halifax and other members of the British Government were fully aware that the Fuhrer had not only achieved a great deal inside Germany herself, but that, by destroying Communism in his country, he had barred its road to Western Europe, and that Germany therefore could rightly be regarded as a bulwark of the West against Bolshevism
In spite of these difficulties Lord Halifax recognized that the Chancellor had not only performed great services in Germany, but also, as he would no doubt feel, had been able by preventing the entry of Communism into his own country, to bar Its passage further West. The Prime Minister held the view that it should be possible to find a solution of out differences by an open exchange of views
When the Soviets liberated Germany they were able to get a huge cache of British diplomatic documents. The Soviets released the above book and Documents And Materials Relating To The Eve Of The Second World War Vol. 2 full to the brim of diplomats praising Nazi Germany as a twin pillar alongside Britain stopping communism.
Bold statement. Do you have any examples? I would disagree, but maybe I just don’t quite understand what you meant.
SPD is just standing by not doing anything (except being corrupt), basically silent complicity. The greens are also not clearly positioning themselves against the anti immigrant hatred, but they are still doing much better than the rest imo.
I agree with you on the SPD, but Habeck was pretty fucking clear that Abschiebung is not the way to go. The Linke on the other hand seems great until you see their position on NATO, rearmament, Russia, and Ukraine…
My dad literally voted for Volt instead of Grüne because “the Grüne was to positive about immigration”
Correctly but, me who is supporting both volt and grüne and even is joining volt in summer, but with volts goal of a united europe,…that seems pretty pro immigration. Not to mention also them wanting easier immigration.
Does your dad know something i dont?
It’s just stigma against the Grüne; hypocrisy at its purest. In other words: I don’t think he actually cares about immigration, he was just using it as a scapegoat.
I see peoples issues with the linke as largely unimportant. Having 9% of the seats taken by nato critical people is a healthy contra to the overwhelming majority that would never dare to criticize their sometimes criticism worthy decisions. If you never have anyone looking at things from an outside perspective the governement will lose touch with reality.
Fair enough. While I myself wouldn’t vote for them, I do agree that they are by no means evil. Their position certainly may even be valuable, I concede. I don’t want my preferred party (the Grüne) to be the most radical left party, it’s always good to have an even more left party to balance things out. We don’t want to end up like the US, where even moderate things like universal healthcare are viewed as radical in the state. Democracy serves it’s purpose. In other words: you’ve pretty much convinced me (though I would still vote Grüne).
What should the SPD be doing?
Behave like social democrats, push to fund infrastructure and school upgrades (instead of defunding them), not have a leading candidate that was involved with the biggest tax fraud scheme in recent history, etc
I nisunderstood, I thought you were calling them to do something about AfD more directly.
The best way to fight fascism is with meaningful policy thay helps the working class. The best way to help it is proving that liberal democracy consists in getting to choose which party gets to enforce austerity this term
Considering that Putin is the biggest fascist threat for all of Europe, your statement is laughable. The Left agree that Putin is doing bad things in Ukraine and other countries but their message is that the domestic social net is more important than Europe’s survival and all weapon deliveries must stop. Let’s talk instead.
If policies were up to them, they’d be helping fascism almost as much as outright Putin sheep
It is so fucking sad that the tolerance “paradox” goes all the way to fucking war.
Like you literally have to fight a war against war seekers if you don’t want war. Like fucking hell, why can’t we at least be chill there?
How is Putin the biggest fascist threat for Europe? Fascism was literally born in Europe and exported elsewhere, we have Nazi and fascist parties getting consistent growth election after election in basically every EU country.
Believe it or not, Europe isn’t at war with Russia, we should be struggling in favour of diplomacy to reduce both our and their military expenditure… which is hard to do when riding hard the NATO wave. Ffs Europe was building gas pipelines with Russia 3.2 years ago, we’re really still capable of separating ourselves from fascist US, reduce military expenditure with fascist Russia, and take care of our own fascist problems.
Yes, we are. From election interference to contamination of drinking water at military bases in Germany, incendiary devices placed on DHL planes, and cutting undersea cables.
Completely naive. Diplomacy only works from a position of strength.
Russia invaded Georgia. No military help, only diplomacy: Led nowhere.
Russia’s 2014 invasion of Ukraine: No military help, only diplomacy. Two Minsk Accords Russia used to build up their military and Russia then happily broke.
Russia is part of Europe. Russia is waging genocide in Europe. North Korean soldiers are murdering in Europe. Putin is our fascist problem and people appeasing Putin are also a part of the problem.
I absolutely agree with this, people really seem to not take Putin seriously enough. Putin is already at war with us; he’s literally had people killed in Moabit and invaded Europe. This is not Nato’s fault, it is blatant aggression from Putin, which we need to respond, and should have responded, to accordingly.
If attacks to civilian infrastructure and election interference are enough to claim war, Germany should be in the first instance at war with the US and Ukraine according to that logic, given the explosion of the Nordstream (much more important and evident than reported drinking water alteration or whatever you claim of DHL planes with incendiary devices). Also, Ukraine should be at war with the US for its interference in the election process in 2014, where the democratically elected leader was toppled in a blatant west-backed coup.
You know what Georgia and Ukraine have in common? They’re in the Russian sphere of influence area and have been for the past century. What’s happening is that the west keeps meddling in the Russian sphere of influence and Russia responds in the only way it can: militarily. Russia exhausted the possibilities of diplomacy with the west, warned repeatedly of the consequences of western-alignment of Ukraine (which, again, was done antidemocratically in 2014). That’s the reason why Russia invaded Ukraine, because its diplomacy, soft power and interference were weaker than those of the west in maintaining a sphere of influence. Believe it or not, history didn’t begin in 2022.
The EU should stop the US-directed meddling in Russia’s sphere of influence, and start building relations with the countries that are actually sharing a continent with it. It’s just too racist and too subservient to US interests to do so.
Putin is a fascist and that’s a problem, but he’s not the one pushing to cut our healthcare and education and pensions budgets, he does that in Russia. He’s not the one threatening our minorities and our women, he does that in Russia. Europe is more than capable of having fascism by itself without the help of Putin, and blaming everything on a Russian conspiracy is, well, a conspiracy. Russia isn’t nearly powerful or influential enough to be mostly responsible for the fascist problem in the EU, there are a lot more material conditions thst give raise to that.
Stop fucking cheering for war. Stop your warmongering attitudes, stop presenting Europe as the fighting ground for WW3, you DO NOT WANT to see war in the EU, and it’s absofuckinglutely not too late to go back.
And here you are, laying bare that you’re just repeating pro Russian propaganda. Calling the right to protest a coup. Not the occupation of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine is the problem but the people rising up.
Yeah, Russia is just there doing some domestic stuff we don’t need to care about. Russia isn’t occupying parts of Ukraine, Moldova, and Georgia. Russia isn’t expanding westwards. Just sit idly by when tens of thousands of non-Russian children get kidnapped, put into reeducation camps, to then fight for Russia. Just sit idly by when Russian agents outright attack German barracks and twiddle your thumbs. Other issues are way more important than caring about that campaign of extermination in Eastern Europe within the borders of an EU-aspirant.
Good I didn’t do it. Another Russian propaganda tool is to push back against claims that were never made, acting as if anyone but Russia was the aggressor, trying to move the conversation into Russia’s genocide being just legitimate self-defense.
You’re nothing but a Russian propagandist, whether you’re aware of it or not.
“But wouldn’t a Russian propagandist deny that bad things are happening inside Russia?” the propaganda playbook would make you ask in return, admitting to some criticism but brush it off as a domestic problem far away, trying to cast doubts on your underlying intentions. Russia’s propagandists up the illusion of a broader political landscape. Put the AfD on Germany’s far right, put the BSW on Germany’s far left, put appeasers somewhere in between, and divert attention away from Russia’s attempts at conquering Europe.
Seeing as you’re radicalised against Russia to that degree, any further discussion is useless, I won’t change your mind and you won’t change mine by making false claims of genocide and failing to understand the slightest nuance beyond US state department propaganda