Okay, Bayern, I need you to win the title again.
Based
Factos 👍👀
Facts
Pathetic.
They don’t deserve Xabi
So there are vocal, uneducated bigots in Germany too? Who would of thought?
Not understanding what this has to do with a football match.
lovely
Guess someone didn’t like the latest episode of Doctor Who
There’s actually 3 genders in German grammar.
Lmfao
For anyone wondering, it’s Er/Sie/Es (He/She/it)
One issue here is that “Geschlechter” was translated as “genders” in the headline, while the word can also be translated as “sexes”, which does make a big difference. I’m not sure though what relevance the existence of two biological sexes has for those fans.
Where’s the issue? From the context it’s very clear they meant gender and not sex
There is no issue. It’s very clear that they meant gender and not sex.
I think they were asking because /u/ViciousNakedMoleRat literally said “one issue here is that […]”.
You are right. There is no issue. So I don’t quite know why the existence of the other translation needed any pointing out since I doubt these people meant to make and display a purely medical banner.
Football has always had a political side. Those fans showed their political colors I guess
I have a lot of German friends, and it seems really regional but a lot of the country is extremely transphobic.
How is this specifically transphobic? I understand that this is against non-binary people, but don’t trans people want to change from one sex to the other, staying in the original binary selection?
These right-wing football fans aren’t waving this banner to start a gentle discussion about the differences between sex and gender. They’re doing it to be provocative and whip up hate against all trans people (including trans men, women and non binary people). It’s a shorthand for basically saying trans people are making it all up, designed to laugh at and try and humiliate trans people, which makes it transphobic / hateful in its sentiment. Intentions matter.
Can confirm that it’s mostly regional. Having spent 15 years in northern Germany, all I ever heard on the topic was something like ‘just let people do what they want’.
Although, and this might be relevant, none of the people I’ve been in contact with are religious or anything of the sort.
Which is insane because one of the first book burning was targeted towards a sex institute. First they came for the trans kids…
Most of the world is transphobic
Realistically, is there a country that isn’t? Maybe Thailand.
I mean here in Sweden I don’t see it too much outside of rural areas. It definitely exists but the status quo is generally fine with it as far as I’ve noticed first hand. I’m not trans though so I’m probably not a reliable authority on the subject.
Meh. Nowadays if you don’t want a mtf athlete competing with biological women or children taking life altering hormones at 12 some coward bully will want to justify bashing your head in because they call you “transphobe”.
We gotta stop with the word and actually talk about the issues without threats every 5 seconds. Not that Reddit is the place for that since it’s circlejerk-land where anyone who disagrees is a nazi, but you get the point.
But even hardcore gender social constructivists don’t argue for more than 2 sexes? Or have I misread the literature?
There are quite a few people who argue for sex as a spectrum. Which doesn’t make biological sense and is neither helpful for intersex people nor for transgender people.
I don’t know what a “gender social constructivist” is, but I do know that from a medical standpoint there are more than two biological sexes.
The person you’re replying to is wrong, translating the word as gender makes the most sense here. That said, sex isn’t strictly binary ~1.5% of people are intersex, which means when they’re born, they don’t fit the typical definition of male or female.
that means 98.5% of all people have either xx or xy karyotypes, right?
The discussion always hinges upon disagreements what to do with those 98.5%. Not about what are those 1.5%.
Thats what I mean.
In my experience, the conservative side of it tends to be reductive like that, trans advocacy has been getting better at including intersex advocacy as well because the two groups have overlapping needs. I mostly mentioned it because it was interesting and relevent though.
Again, this is all well and good, it just fails to grasp the discourse and tries to establish a topic the other side has no interest in. Its literally miscomunication.
I’m just sick of all the people talking past each other hoping that if they do it long enough the other side will come back to the debate on their turf which never happens.
Why do people do that?
Alright, lay it out for me. What am I debating against then? I will try to give a nice thorough answer.
1.5% of people are not intersex. It’s closer to about 0.02%
I got my numbers from Amnesty International.
Myth 2: Being intersex is very rare
According to experts, around 1.7% of the population is born with intersex traits – comparable to the number of people born with red hair.
It’s a common figure that you will often see but it’s wrong.
It’s based on an academic paper that included a large range of non-intersex conditions that affect phenotype.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/
Actual chromosomal difference (which is what intersex refers to) is about 0.02%.
Why does it make the most sense? The word Geschlecht can mean both sex and gender.
There are definitely more than 2 sexes. There are XX, XY, XXY, and XYY.
FYI, most medical literature will refer to intersex genotypes as male or female still with the presence of the Y chromosome generally defining the sex. For instance if you look up XXY on Wikipedia or similar, it will usually say “XXY male”. On crossover events, it’s still characterized as male and female but usually as “XX male” and “XY female”
Those are literally abberations and detract from the actual discussions. Nobody cares about those edge cases, discussions only go there if there is a “but actually…” thing going on
like you just did
No one cares, except for all the people who do.
Maybe the problem is that people don’t care and make uninformed statements?
But its literally the same as if someone asks „how many fingers are on a human hand?“, the answer being 5 and you going „actually the answer is 0-10“ because some people with deformations got born with more or less fingers than usual.
The problem isnt uninformed people, the thing is most people are more than aware about these things but are just able to see whats the point of the discussion and dont want to derail it.
The difference there is that no one discriminates or denies the existence of people with more or less than 10 fingers.
Unless you consider intersex the third sex.
I’m not sure though what relevance the existence of two biological sexes has for those fans.
The same relevance it has for everyone saying there are only two genders: It’s part of their culture war.
Germany badly needs some English speakers to create a “latinx” for them
lil bro germany is 2 latinx updates infront of the anglos
we have it for every word and we use special characters for it
For englishmen we would use Engländer*in or Engländer_innen
OK I’m curious, mind giving me a quick explanation? There is a gender neutral for every word?
What is it about anti-trans people that they are so fucking obsessed with trans people? Like, they make hating trans people a core tenant of their entire character.
I think for them it was just a easy way to try to provoke the bremen ultras as some groups in Bremen are openly leftwing and lgbt friendly.
But doesn’t excuse the banner in any way.
Trying for force something on people usually comes with a reaction
The two groups that disproportionately shout louder than their ‘opposition’ are anti-trans people and anti-vegan people.
There are two genders and you’ve just eaten two steaks - I could not give less of a shit about your attention seeking bullshit.
Hmmm Vegans definitely have certain groups that are pretty damn insufferable and authoritarian
Nah, I know a bunch of vegans and they’re really just normal people.
Vegetarianism is a common practice in Asian culture. I ate vegetarian for a month as part of mourning my deceased grandmother. It’s really not a big deal.
What blows my mind is that this is the sort of shit I found funny when I was 12, and there are grown adults wetting themselves with laughter over it.
Hating gay people isn’t as popular anymore so the right has moved on to the next group they hate.
30 years ago they made banners like this about gay people instead. 30 years before that it was about feminism. The right will always find some group they hate and claim is destroying society.
And before that it was blacks, but they didn’t use signs, they just killed black people and set signal fires.
Always the part that drives me crazy. It’s so up front and obvious the history of moving on to the next thing to hate, with all the same bigoted arguments, fearmongering, and faulty logic.
I get not everybody is going to have the best education in history (unfortunately), but if you’ve lived 20 years on this earth you’ve seen how they shift targets and just use the same tactics, while pretending that they were always fine with what came before (woman/minorities/gays/etc).
When in reality it’s them
This is about the time they’ll claim Hitler was a leftist because the party name had “Socialist” in it.
Oh they‘re way ahead of you. Politicians of the German party AfD have claimed that the Nazis weren’t fascists, but in fact socialists
They have a point, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea are having their election next week
No they don’t
He was also vegetarian. Leftist as fuck.
Kinda telling that they’re taking Hitler’s word as fact tbh
Seems they have to go for ever smaller groups as well, in a 100 years all that’s left for the right to hate will be some dude named Thomas.
Yeah okay, but have you seen Thomas
Fuck Thomas, all my homies hate Thomas
“We’d never say a word if fucking Thomas did his Thomas shit at home, away from our (hwite) children”
I’m Irish that’s like half my family this sucks
Fuck.
Tbh I agree fuck you thomas
100% how I see it.
There needs to be an “other”.
Gay people aren’t any longer socially acceptable so they go after something else.
Women -> black people -> gay people -> transgender people -> ?
Shit’s dumb.
Gay people aren’t any longer socially acceptable
Yes they are my dude
He phrased it poorly. He meant it’s no longer acceptable to attack gay people.
The “to go after” was I thought rather implied. Could have been more clear I guess.
can’t wait to hate robot people in 30 years
Jews,Blacks,women,gays, Trans peopleTrans people will become this generation’s minority scapegoat
lol dumb
They actually came for the trans kids first!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_book_burnings#The_burnings_start
Yeah im old but 20 years ago this hate was reserved for gay people. And boy was it unhinged. Like getting two guys to marry would end the republic (the us).
*tenet. But yeah, absolutely true.
You could say ‘tenant’ since trans people clearly live rent-free in their heads.
Wouldn’t a tenant be paying rent?
so you’re saying the transes are now squatters trying to get free welfare, and disrespecting those of us who pay rent to live in people’s heads?!!
I think it’s more that those people with trans people living in their heads invite them in, it’s their choice trans people are living there rent free. So they’re more like guests I suppose. Rather polite of the bigots to host trans people rent free in their heads all year round I think
Fuck. It tried to auto correct me to Tennant, cause I was talking about Dr Who recently. Had to fight it for tenant, but felt it could also be wrong 😂
trans ppl are one of most marginalized groups who also have barely any representation in the public media, its a prime target for bullying when youre a horrible bigot, online spaces turn more and more into violent echo chambers so ppl get radicalized harder and faster than like 10 years ago.
Those ppl spend a lot of time online and Twitter’s new boss is openly pushig and supporting anti-trans voices for example. German Twitter is especially hateful and barely moderated.
Not to mention that a *lot* of Germans are still/again not rly socially progressivebarely any representation in the public media? bro are you crazy? they’re grossly overrepresented. considering how much you hear about them in in on social media and media in general you would think they would make up way more than tops 0.5% of the population, but they don’t. Come on man.
they don’t really exist in the real world
This guy has never been to a Smash Bros tournament
they don’t really exist in the real world.
The fuck.
They’re over-represented in the news because they’re being used as a political tool by the right.
ok
Trans people are incredibly over represented in the public media
really?
the vast majority of trans debates in the english media sphere don’t even have trans people in the debate about them lol.
Otherwise it’s like, some fringe netflix shows and a small part of the indie gaming space are the only places, the chances of being exposed to trans representation in media without specifically searching it out is minimal.
Like, I’m very much in the online media spaces that are most welcoming of trans people and I still see very little unless I would specifically search for LBTQ+ media.
I did a quick google to get a frame of reference, and within video games since 2020, there are 17 trans characters, of which only 4 games would be considered mainstream (Last of Us 2, Cyberpunk, Baldurs Gate 3, Hogwarts Legacy)… That’s not many, and I don’t think we can really consider many of the games Super Lesbian Animal RPG to really be representative of regular media?
For films it’s 23 films since 2020 of which I have heard of only 1 film, the rest are all indie art-house… Again not really representative of what people will see unless they search it out.
Male to female trans may be visble in media , but not really in a meaningful way on tv which is still king in the voter base that have a majority in this aging country. Unfunnily enough the vast majority of trans people are female to male and they barely have any representation
I mean, highly depends on where you’re from. If you take “public media” as “American media and fictional stories by Netflix/Hollywood” then maybe you’re right. But it’s a pretty different reality if you’re from say Ecuador, and media representation is also a matter of proximity.
Partly because they have no other meaning in their lives than to hate on other people.
And partly because they want to believe that they’re onto the establishment’s sinister plot - they’re pushing LGBT+ on everybody and eventually it will be illegal not to cut off your dick.
But these brave heroes are awake to this crusade (you could even say they’re woke), and think that by getting on the hate bus early, that they can point with righteous indignation that they tried to warn us but nobody listened.
Or they were wrong, and they hated a minority for no reason, which for them is a win-win situation.
Saw a stat that right wing people engage with more trans related content on their social media feed than all other political leanings combined, even more than trans people themselves.
I’m guessing left wing people talk more about right wing than right wing people do.
Yep that’s the one!
Reminds me of Seoul Pride. The LGBTQ people are just there to network, socialize, maybe find someone they find cute, enjoy the after party but every years tens of thousands of fundamentalist christians come to protest pride and they got drum lines, and dancing performances, a choir comes out singing, they got mass produced picket signs, they bring out the trucks with speakers and are blaring music…like they’re WAY WAY WAY more into pride than we are LMAO.
It’s at the point that the first media source to report the location and time for pride is the Christian Times so when it comes around the time they announce pride we start checking the fundy christian news for updates.
That’s to be expected, though. People engage more with what annoys or angers them. I bet you’d see that left-leaning people engage more with Trump content.
Rage bait is a hell of a drug.
That explains a lot, I’d also hate it if it got shoved into my timeline lol.
In 30+ years in a Western country I never met any transgender people in my entire life, but on this website it seems like 1 in fourth people are (and 75% people claim to be neurodivergent).
Never had a problem with them online, never threaten my way of life or wish my kids or myself any harm.
It’s seem like a US politics theatrical bullshit, once again, exported to Europe.
It’s seem like a US politics theatrical bullshit
What makes you think this is a mindset that began in the US? Where do you think the US got most of its cultural values?
Oh yeah I just remembered the EU talking non-stop about this before the 2016 US election, my fault.
The soft power the USA got politically affect every countries in the whole wide fucking world, and especially culturally in Western countries.
You might want to read up on the trans issues and political debate in the UK.
That’s exactly what it is. A political wedge issue. For example the issue of trans women “dominating” sports because they were born male is now a super hot button topic, even though the NCAA actually dealt with this issue in 2011 and laid out a very reasonable policy which functioned fine for many years and did not result in any level of trans women “dominance” of women’s sports.
Surprise surprise, it’s because in the U.S. the liberals won gay marriage and the conservatives “won” abortion, and now the conservative outrage factory needs a new angle to keep single-issue voters in line. It’s hilarious how the right always accuses the left of playing identity politics when they’re the ones that conjure up issues out of nothing.
What I find confounding is how Europe continues to import our political issues. These countries, especially the right wing, are always so derisive of American politics, but always seem to end up fighting the same stupid fights we do here. The rise of fascism seemed to also get kicked into high gear after Trump. Aren’t y’all supposed to be proud to be better than us? Stop copying the worst of us.
About your last point, it’s because of the overwhelming presence of US Media everywhere. The American soft power is truly a master class of how to dominate the majority of the world.
And Koch bros. and countless other conservative billionaires keep pumping money in every countries.
But we do have real historical leftist in the Majority of European countries.
I’ve met at least once in France, and working as a intern in public administration.
That’s the only I’ve met and she was at the reception in the prefecture.
I just said this to someone else, but how do you know you haven’t met other trans people? I had a friend for years before I found out he was trans because he wrote a song about it. He was out, and lots of people knew, but it never came up. We had other things to talk about.
That’s a very valid point
You likely have and didn’t know it.
Yeah that’s for sure, but seing that some people crying about “The Trans Pedophile agenda” and never ever once it came up in my life, seems weird. And I grew Up in the Paris banlieue and now in the Lyon area, so no small villages either.
There IS no trans pedophile agenda, it’s right wingers inventing something to be mad about. They USED to be mad about “the blacks” or “the gays” but lost those battles in the court of public opinion.
Have to hate SOMEONE, and people were getting tired of Muslim hate, I guess.
Yeah we’re basically on the same page,I was mocking people saying that kind of stuff.
Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
EXACTLY.
For that matter there’s a pretty good chance you’ve been around someone who didn’t know that THEY were typical gender non-conforming because of things like androgen insensitivity syndrome and the like.
The two traits are highly correlated.
Thanks for the article, I will read it.
I encountered the first trans man in transition when my co-worker started the treatment. Dude got the thickest beard in my team like within a year and his buzz cut started balding. As a man with thin whiskers and nothing more I can tell you i got a bit envious. It really opened my eyes on how it’s impossible to point out LGBT people in your day to day life.
You don’t think you’ve met any trans people. Odds are, you probably have.
You probably have, you just may not know it.
Fully transitioned people, many of them “pass” well enough in the sea of infinite variety of people of the sex they’ve transitioned to. Which is a polite way of saying that the variety of how born-as-men and born-as-women appear is quite wide.
It’s seem like a US politics theatrical bullshit, once again, exported to Europe.
this current wave of transphobia is a specifically British creation
What make you say that? We’re neighbours and I still heard this bullshit rhetoric more from across the Atlantic.
I really dislike this line of thinking.Think it’s more that it has been shown to be dangerous for trans people to just exist as they are in public, whereas online they prob feel safer expressing their true self.
If you’ve gone 30+ years without ever meeting a trans person, maybe it’s cuz trans people have never felt safe being open about it with you?
Maybe they don’t feel safe around me, but I’ve always been open minded and a curious person. I don’t think I give those kind of vibes.
And I agree that it is dangerous to just exist for trans people,and I understand, like for neurodivergent people, reddit is a much safer place than real life.
No animosity here.
But like someone said in this thread, maybe I met some and didn’t even notice. Those conversations never came up.
Lmao of course, immediately blame someone because they never knowingly met a trans person.
Trans people still make up a pretty small percentage of the population
It’s so fucking annoying on reddit. You can’t even start an argument with them on completely unrelated subjects, it’s just “transphobic” and boom, downvotes
You can’t even start an argument with them
Who is them? The transgender hivemind?
Your post tries to say a lot, while not saying anything at all. I have arguments with other trans people a lot, never been called transphobic in my life.
The transgender hivemind?
I would say that they are mostly fake. Just looking to dilute the subjects.
You sound like people saying “Oh we can’t say anything nowadays, everybody calls you racist” but you have to know that the majority of people have never been called transphobic or racist in their entire life.
It’s ok to ask question, to be curious, but there is a culture war on social media and it’s the last place to learn shit, and it’s better to just shut the fuck up if you don’t know what you’re talking about.
That’s racist!
It may be an age thing, I’m in my early 30’s, but I’ve met quite a few at varying stages of transition and in some cases I’ve not found out until way after the fact that their gender didn’t match up with their sex. Unlike what the anti-trans lot like to claim, they don’t shove it down people’s throats or make anywhere near as big a deal of it as the tabloids and Twitter like to believe.
The bigots will have you believe that trans people wear shirts that say “I’m teams and you must love me!” and are just itching to sign your kids up to HRT. In truth, they, like everyone else, just want to live their lives in peace.
The bigots will have you believe that trans people wear shirts that say “I’m teams and you must love me!”
honestly, Microsoft do make people feel like this sometimes. Especially New Teams, all my homies hate New Teams
WOKE LGBTQ PEOPLE PUTTING HRT IN THOSE HELLOWEEN CANDIES! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!
-Edith, Scunthorpe, 63
You’ve met trans people before, you just didn’t realise
Yeah sorry, I should’ve put “openly/out trans people”.
I’ve met several trans and non-cis-gendered people in the USA. And America’s biggest export has always been culture, so when bigots over here shout, other bigots across the world amplify it.
It seems like that cause it is just that, American zoomer culture bleeding over the rest of the world
Eh, it’s likely you haven’t noticed tbh. A lot of trans people just look like any regular cisgendered person, it’s not always visually noticeable.
It’s hilarious how they’re like “WE ALWAYS CAN TELL” and then they’ll call a fully cisgender female with a square jaw a man.
And that’s exactly the reason why I don’t understand why people make such a big deal of it
Social conservatives always need to have an out-grouo to attack
Yeah I’m sure that’s the case, and I haven’t notice and they didn’t talk about it if they’re weren’t comfortable to bring it up. All is good, never had a problem.
It’s seem like a US politics theatrical bullshit, once again, exported to Europe
Right wingers need to create an enemy. As you said, they are no threat to our way of life, but people like Trump, Putin or that Florida clown made hating them a part of their political campaigns. And now the far-right in Europe are picking up on the same rhetoric.
I’m not trying to pretend everything is great here. Plenty of countries have extremely backwards laws regarding transgender individuals. But it’s very clear where this anti-trans statements come from
Hate of trans people is certainly not coming from the US.
No but using their existence as a political talking point is.
Exactly. It shouldn’t affect their life whatsoever.
they dont hate trans people, they just hate the people supporting trans people
How is that banner connected to trans people? (Not a hater, I’m geniunely asking.)
What do you think “but only two genders” is referring too…
I mean, can’t you be supportive of trans people, while thinking there are only two genders? If you’re trans, you’re either male or female, right?
Those people most likely wanted for trans people to be included in the banner’s meaning, but don’t the later want to be a male/female, which are one of those two genders, just the opposite of their sex at birth?
I feel like it’s human nature to find an enemy by picking something that makes them different.
- someone from another tribe
- someone thinking jesus was a man and not a prophet
- someone wearing a red hat and not a blue one
- someone being a woman and not a man
- someone liking men and not women
- someone being from the east of a city and someone from the west
- someone being trans instead of male/female
- etc.
Eventually it’ll be someone whose wearing cyber implants vs those who don’t ala Deus Ex. It doesn’t make it right but it just seems that we as a race need an enemy at all times.
Wait, maybe I’m being ignorant, but what do trans issues have to do with the gender binary? If someone transitions, they’re generally MTF or FTM, which could still be understood as binary, right?
We need awards back for comments like this
They think about genitals more than any gynecologist
This is moreso against non-binary, isn’t it?
I know an older guy who complains non-stop about trans and also complains about how his tik-tok/insta/whatever fucking socials show him a LOT of trans stuff. We haven’t the heart to explain to him how algorithms work and that he clearly seeks this shit out. They like it (or are at least intrigued by it), they hate that they like it, and they get angry about it.
They’re not hating trans people they’re just stating a fact to be fair. There’s only two genders, the sky is blue and so on.
Some people just have way too much free time.
This. Ain’t no trans person ever done me wrong so why should I hate them?
Bigoted football ultras on the other hand…
What is it about football fans that makes them hate other teams’ fans? Like, they make hating other groups and loving their own group a care tenant of their entire character.
Am I missing context? Why are they refering to a “;)”?
Bayer Leverkusen is seen in Germany as a plastic club by a lot of fans, mostly because they have distanced themselves from their working class roots. They have a family friendly atmosphere and stadium. As a result a part of the ultra fanbase is trying to distance themselves from that clean image by being edgy and coming up with shocking statements.
They have a cult mascot, “der Zitronenmann”, they use as a “spokesperson to” say controversial shit trying to get attention and stay relevant. They have provoked and picked fights with rivals as well, mainly Bremen and Koln.
and what exactly is controversial in that statement?
Bremen and Koln
of course lol
Every right-wing ultras group hates those clubs. Respectively, they’re seen as the “woke club” and “gay club” by the far-right ultras.
Köln is actually due to the proximity. Bremen however doesn’t make any sense whatsoever, their fans can’t really be generalised as leaning towards any political affiliation.
Not sure what your source is but Bremen Ultras are very, very left leaning.
The club itself is also a bit more left leaning just look at the AFD statements.In 2007 there was an attack on the antirascist Ultra Group Racaille by far right Hooligans at a party inside the stadiums east curve hall. Back at that time most fans were like you said trying to be unpolitical and to avoid any conflicts but there was also the first root of leftist fan groups and anti-rascist, anti-homophobic etc. fan groups coming up.
This attack lead to a change in our fan scene but since then the majority of our ultra scene has been very far left leaning and the Hooligan Groups have been driven out of the stadium.
Of course there is no generalisation of normal fans. I do know someone with very right wing views whos St. Pauli fan but in general our fan scene right now and especially the ultras are left leaning.
Damn, I live in Germany and consume a lot of football and adjacent content, but I’ve never heard of that. Might just be down to me not actively seeking news on Werder though.
In Glasgow we would call this group a bunch of VL’s
Just want to show my flair here to confirm your answer. It’s embarrassing as fuck.
“We’re not plastic, we’re homophobic you see ;)”
Leverkusen are known for their homophobia, Gladbach for attracting Nazis, and we’re just here playing shit football.
You’re hating us for the wrong reasons! >:c
Bayer Leverkusen is seen in Germany as a plastic club by a lot of fans, mostly because they have distanced themselves from their working class roots.
This is not the reason though. Leverkusen is s smallish city, right next to Colone and they allways had a limited draw and were a “smaller club”, that never had any major success and whose biggest accomplishment it was to win a match here and there against 1.FC Köln.
When Leverkusen rached the 1st division, in the 80s, FC && Gladbach were two of the biggest clubs in the country and scraped up the fans of the region, pretty much all the Leverkusen fans I know are from the city. From what I know and thats not really, really deep Leverkusen upped their investment, after they survived the fist few years in the league, Bayer invested 2 million deutsche Mark into new players, wich was a lot back then and established themselves as one of the better/top third teams in the league. Fans of other teams then slowly grew to dislike the club, that only had an attendence of around 10k, in a time, where most of the cash clubs made came from selling tickets, being bankrolled by a company, it then became a lot worse, when they were contending in the late 90s, early 2000s.
As a result a part of the ultra fanbase is trying to distance themselves from that clean image by being edgy and coming up with shocking statements.
Where are the shocking statements?
Bayer Leverkusen is seen in Germany as a plastic club by a lot of fans, mostly because they have distanced themselves from their working class roots.
No, they are seen as bad for the Bundesliga because they undermine 50+1 by being a works team for Bayer.
The Team existed as Bayer Leverkusen 100 years before 50+1 was a thing.
And? It doesn’t matter how they were founded 100 years ago. Nowadays they are part of the Bayer AG and are one of three (soon to be two) clubs who are exempt from the 50+1 rule.
Which one is the third club? As far as I know, it’s only Leverkusen and RB
RB is not legally exempt from the rule, they just get around it.
Leverkusen, Wolfsburg and Hoffenheim. RB is not exempt from 50+1. They found a workaround
Hoffenheim, Leverkusen, Wolfsburg.
RB is just shady. They are no works team. They are RasenBallsport Leipzig e.V., e.V. meaning “eigetragener Verein” - registered association. A “normal” club on paper.
That makes no sense. The reason why they are exempt from the rule is because the club literally has the roots in the company that founded it ages ago. It absolutely does matter when and how they were founded. Otherwise they wouldnt be exempt.
So what? It’s still a special exemption from the law, being grandfathered in doesn’t change that. “Technically, it’s legal” won’t win you any sympathy points.
This.
No reason for Bayer to take over the club then?
They didnt take over the club.
The clubs history begins in February 1903 when 170 workers of Bayer signed a letter to the head of the company asking to found a company athletics team. In July 1904 they officially created Turn- und Spielverein 1904 der Farbenfabrik vormals Friedrich Bayer Co. Leverkusen.
Bayer owned the club from the very beginning and half a century before people even thought you could make money off of professional football. There is nothing plastic about that, just a traditional workers team with deep bonds to its “mother” Bayer. The first time they wore the iconic Bayer Cross on their jerseys was in 1936.
I thought RB Leipzig was the only plastic club
No Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim, Leipzig and Leverkusen are the 4 plastic clubs.
I am not German so maybe I am missing something but I can’t really see the equivalence between Wolfsburg and Leverkusen against Hoffenheim and Leipzig. The former were initiated as clubs for the workers of the companies about 100 years ago, the latter two were bought by SAP and RB, respectively. I don’t think it makes sense to see Wolfsburg and Leverkusen in the same light given that their history is deeply intertwined with the corporations that own them, the people of those corporations and the cities they are in.
It’s absolutely normal to me that Wolfsburg and Bayer are owned by their respective Groups, even with the German rule of ownership.
Edit: obviously this ultra message from OP is horrendous and i’m not defending it all btw
No youre not missing anything, youre spot on. They are in no way comparable. Both wolfburg and leverkusen are simply clubs situated in a city that is heavily influenced by a single company and naturally created football and other sports clubs. As you said, they are just worker clubs that have existed for a long time. In comparison redbull is a new brand that isnt even german.
There absolutely is a big difference between the two and people who call wolfburg or leverkusen plastic clubs are just clueless haters.
I see what you’re saying, but intuitively it strikes me as a form of recency bias. One has a hundred-odd years of history, the other doesn’t.
I am not German so maybe I am missing something but I can’t really see the equivalence between Wolfsburg and Leverkusen against Hoffenheim and Leipzig
in general the two broad categories of german clubs are “tradtionsclub”(tradition club) and “Kommerzclub” (commercial club, the plastics).
we do make further distinctions within that second category (Leipzig is seen as by far the worst, then hoffenheim and then wolfsburg and leverkusen) but what they all share is that they are controlled privately and undermine 50+1, so they are grouped together as plastic
I see, that’s interesting. Thanks for the cultural context, makes sense.
They still have a big financial advantage for not being owned by the fans but by Bayer AG a ethicly dubious company at the least. Fans just don’t like that, they take away a spot in the bundesliga from Fan-Owned Clubs, they take away International campaings from Clubs who would actually fill their stadium in these international games, who could actually use the money. All 4 clubs make the leage worse.
Cringe
Big divorced Dad energy
Mostly Single mom energy
two sides of the same coin m8
Yeah but divorced dad energy is not that dangerous as single mom
Bundesliga US twitter account energy
Straight to the gulag
I take it you are a divorced dad with that reflection.
LOL everybody in Bremen laughs about that every season, Werder is NOT A RIVAL of Leverkusen, it’s just that their ultras try desperately to start a quarrel with the mainly leftist leaning ultra groups with tame provocations like this one.
Hertha Fans try the same with us in Schalke and other Schalke Fans are always super confused because nobody cares about Hertha Berlin.
Setting aside the fact that I find club friendships and rivalries in general super random and mostly ridiculous, this one has some history. Old Hertha fans remember Schalke using lawyer power to strip Hertha of a crushing 3:0 win in the 71/72 DFB Pokal, after which Schalke went on to win the Pokal that season.
It’s fascinating how we don’t care at all about that story whereas Hertha sees us as their biggest rival or whatever
Leverkusen sees Bremen as rivals, rivalries arent necessarily a two way street. That is why they tried to start shit though, to make it more heated and serious. When they did it with Koln they got chased around the city. Their Ultras are a bunch of useless cunts, they also caused problems in Portugal. Not by fighting with opposing fans, but by harassing locals and businesses.
- There are leftist ultras?
- This is not a tame provocation, it’s an attack on trans people.
that clean image by being edgy and coming up with shocking statements.
You mean by voicing their real opinions and then going “just a joke bro”?
Kulturkampf 2.0
👏
🤡
This will be a fun thread for a Monday morning.
Relax, it’s just a bunch of raging populist right wing Germans seeking to erase the existence of people they don’t care for. When has that ever led to real trouble?
