If Hitler and the Nazis are anything to go by then there is no line.

Not that I’m aware of. This is the first time I’ve seen the snail.

I’m ignoring your bloviating bullshit cause its already been refuted, despite it being a masquerade and irrelevant to the point of the topic at hand, all of which is nothing but an example of you desperately trying to distract from that topic.

Something that, when you deign to acknowledge the topic at all, have argued against, because you agree with them, and you want to let government employees do whatever undermining, institutional destroying bad behaviors they want as long as you agree with it…

People can confirm these are false statements by reading what we wrote. It is self-evident.

And that topic is mail carriers not having the right to choose what gets delivered and what doesn’t based on personal feels and opinions

Which is the core component of most right wing arguments “I agree with it there for its right and moral”

No where in my argument do I advocate for these positions. The decision should be based on empirical evidence.

I cite sources in my comment here:

https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/16679003/10778009

Here is the link about gender affirming care:

https://www.healthline.com/health/what-is-gender-affirming-care

We learn what is true through observation and math. We establish things that we know to be true with scientific studies. When we see a campaign spreading information we know to be false, that would be a disinformation campaign.

Here is a comment where I cite sources:

https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/16679003/10778009

Here is a source from that comment that has a comprehensive overview of gender affirming care:

https://www.healthline.com/health/what-is-gender-affirming-care

Here is argument from that comment supported by that source:

Gender affirming care involves helping trans people, both youths and adults, to transition to their gender identity through the use of therapy, puberty blockers, and hormone therapy. It is lifesaving care. Unsubstantiated attacks to gender affirming care are a threat to the lives of all trans people. Threatening the lives of people with a disinformation campaign is a breach of the social contract of tolerance. When fascists attempt to spread life-threatening disinformation campaigns, people at all levels of society should stand up to them.

We aren’t going to be able to come up with a definition for all possible disinformation campaigns. We do not know everything. However such a definition is not needed to prevent specific disinformation campaigns. And it is possible to know things. Things we know to be true should be held up as the truth. We wouldn’t want the mail service to spread a disinformation campaign advocating for putting exposed radioactive material in people’s homes. We know radiation is harmful to carbon based life.

Shouting fire in a crowded movie theater when there is no fire is not protected speech. Which is a specific rule about a specific kind of disinformation in a specific circumstance. But we have free speech. So free speech is not a 1 or a 0. Free speech rests on the foundation of the truth. If we know the truth about some topic that is critical to life, we should not allow spreading falsehoods about that topic. Gender affirming care should not be an exception to this principle.

Ignoring my argument is not a refutation of my argument. However my argument is a refutation of your argument.

We should want to improve all of our institutions. Public institutions like the mail service are no exception.

Improving a thing is not the same as destroying a thing. We should improve our institutions by using our institutions. We should not replace democracy with a christo-fascist dictatorship. Falsely conflating these two different actions is not a compelling argument.

The fascists in this case were spreading a targeted life-threatening disinformation campaign. Gender affirming care is a collection of lifesaving medical treatments. A ban on gender affirming care would deny trans people the fundamental right to exist. This in not a false concern, but a well researched fact. In this Canadian woman’s case the integrity of the mail service in Canada was being threatened by the fascists. The fascists were the bad-faith actors. With her civil disobedience, she made the strategic decision to defend life and liberty. This Canadian woman was acting in a way that was consistent with our ideals here in the US.

We should change our institutions so that they reject intolerance. This will help us prevent the self-serving agendas of bad-faith actors. Our institutions do not need to collapse in order to accomplish this. In the US, we have the capability to amend the constitution. In fact it is much more difficult to build useful institutions from the ground up, as that historically has required significant military capabilities. The integrity of our institutions is preserved by preventing bad-faith actors from misusing our institutions. Not by blindly allowing fascists to spread disinformation campaigns.

Your argument repeatedly asserts a baseless concern about systemic change for our institutions. There is no utility in being arbitrarily impartial to fascists. Turning a blind eye to their disinformation campaign would not have preserved the integrity of the Canadian mail service. Allowing fascists to takeover our democracy in the US does not preserve the integrity of our democracy. Once bad-faith actors control our institutions the institutions are lost. No amount of arbitrary impartiality before a takeover of our democracy will tie the hands of bad-faith actors. Bad-faith actors will use this leeway to harm groups of people while they are out of power.

Society should not tolerant intolerance. We should not be complicit in our own destruction. If we want to keep our democracy then we must stand up to fascists who attempt to take it away. Even if this means engaging in civil disobedience. We should not want our institutions to be impartial between truths and falsehoods. We should want our institutions to be committed to the truth even if that means being biased against fascists.

The flaw being that we don’t have any system in place to prevent life-threatening disinformation campaigns from being spread in the mail. People being denied the fundamental right to exist is contrary to who we are as the US. It is not a question of morality, but utility. It is a strategically sound decision for people to defend life and liberty against intolerance. The fact MAGA cultists believe they are living an alternate reality should not factor into our decision making process of what we know to be true through research and study.

If fascists takeover our democracy they will have total control of the government. They won’t need us to pass laws or amendments for them to abuse our institutions. They will have total control over all of our institutions at that point no matter what we do. Our efforts should be focused on preventing them from taking power, because once they take power they will not give it up freely.

My argument is that we should act based on utility not morality or some arbitrary notion of fairness. We should reject a false equivalency between groups that are pro-democracy and groups that are pro-authoritarian. We should also reject the neoliberal idea that our institutions are perfect and immutable. Our institutions are deeply flawed and need systemic change if we want to continue to benefit from them.

My argument for changing our institutions, including our democracy, so that we can keep them is not a threat. Nor is it more immediate than the MAGA movement’s publicly announced christo-fascist takeover. The presidential election is this November 5th.

Words are the medium of my argument. The fact my argument refutes your argument’s points does not make the words honeyed.

Changing an institution to improve the institution is constructive. Keeping an institution the same when its flaws will cause the institution to collapse is destructive.

Standing up to fascists doesn’t make us fascists. Changing flawed institutions for the better is not the same as destroying them. The way things are is how we go here. Keeping them that way is how things will get worse.

We should ban any disinformation campaign that we as a society, through research and study, know to be a disinformation campaign.

We should ban any hypothetical authoritarian pro-trans party and their leaflets because they’re an authoritarian party.

We shouldn’t ban something for being woke because woke is now a fascist taking point to demonize the left and something being woke is not a real basis for something to be harmful.

There is a difference between personal mail and disinformation campaign leaflets. No one should be banning Christmas cards unless they are part of a targeted disinformation campaign to deny people the fundamental right to exist.

We as a society have chosen to leave this to individuals. This November 5th, the MAGA movement, a christo-fascist movement, is attempting to takeover our democracy. People in positions of leadership and power saying no to fascists attempting to subvert the results of the election may be all that stands between us and that christo-fascist takeover.

It would be better if there were systems in place to stop disinformation campaigns, but in this Canadian woman’s case, her civil disobedience was the only system in place. We might soon find ourselves in her position. Where civil disobedience is the only recourse to prevent the worst outcomes of fascist policies. So we should not discount civil disobedience out of hand.

Also, fascists are bad-faith actors. Bad-faith actors will attempt to undermine our institutions for their gain no matter what we do. So our efforts should instead go to preventing bad-faith actors like fascists from taking power.

I am copying this here, because it’s what refutes your argument’s central point. We should not factor in what fascists will do into our decision making process. Fascists will try to destroy our way of life no matter what we do. So instead of worrying about trying to appease fascists, which has never worked, we should focus on keeping fascists out of power. If the fascists takeover our democracy, we aren’t getting it back for free. So we should want individuals to engage in civil disobedience to prevent fascists from taking power and enacting their policies. To do otherwise would make us complicit in our own destruction.

Freedom of speech rests on the foundation of the truth. If we elevate lies to the level of the truth we will lose our freedom of speech. There is no utility in tolerating intolerance. In humoring a known disinformation campaign we do not dissuade the fascists, who are always looking to see what they can get away with. Nor do we safeguard our liberties, but instead lay the groundwork for them to be taken away. If we let the fascist decide what is true then it is the fascists who decide what we speak.

Thankfully socialism is an option.

They do not censor it based on personal feelings.

Fascists getting people killed with a disinformation campaign is not feelings. We do not have to tolerate intolerance in order to be a tolerant society. We can make the strategic decision to defend ourselves and our liberty from fascists who want to destroy us.

He says, literally trying to undermine the institutions by arguing to allow people to undermine them, as long as he agrees with their undermining

FYI I’m a woman. I’ll add my pronouns to my bio.

Eventually there won’t be a mail service if fascists kill us all.

Yes yes, Gaslight, Obstruct, Project

This is what your argument is doing.

justice, accountability and integrity

None of these ideals are embodied by a life-threatening disinformation campaign or those who would knowingly let such a campaign slide.

A friend of mine tried it and enjoyed it. At the very least, maybe this is hope that we can ditch our collective sugar addiction.

Which Start Trek show, season, and episode is this from?

These were in your argument. I assessed them as part of a neoliberal argument.

You are still, ultimately, arguing for the destruction of our institutions by trying to give the people you agree with special privilege to do wrong that you agree with.

This gets at the paradox of tolerance. Essentially the paradox of tolerance is how should a tolerant society deal with intolerant people or groups. By reframing tolerance as a social contract or peace treaty, we can resolve the paradox. If a group of people, such as fascists, decided to be intolerant, they have broken the social contract of tolerance. Having broken the agreement, the fascists are no longer protected by the agreement. Thus their speech in the case of the targeted life-threatening disinformation campaign is not protected speech.

So denying the fascists the ability to use the mail in this way is not special treatment, but a refusal by society to tolerate intolerance. Ideally we would have systems in place to prevent disinformation campaigns, but we should rather have individuals exercising civil disobedience than nothing at all. There is no point in an institution such as the mail existing as it does now if it’s going to be used to deny people the fundamental right to exist.

My argument would be the same, That they would need to be punished severely to protect the institution of the US Postal Service, in order to prevent other bad actors from doing more of the same and destroying it from the inside.

Bad-faith actors do not care about being punished. The christo-fascist movement seeks to use our own institutions against us to destroy our way of life. We should not put institutions above the way of life that they are supposed to foster. To do so would defeat the purpose of the institutions.

You are as much a cancer and threat to our institutions as all the other bad actors.

The argument that sounds right wing is yours. edit: typo

I am joyful and hopeful because I love democracy. But it is ok to be sad.

Fascists subverting the mail for their own ends to the detriment of other groups’ liberties would be a form of intolerance which we should not tolerate. That is what the fascists were doing in Canada without evening needing to infiltrate the mail service. We should prevent them from doing this if it happened here in the US. To do otherwise would be to be complicit in our own destruction. We should not put our institutions above our liberties. Our institutions are meant to be for our benefit and not tools for fascists to destroy us. To put it another way, standing up to fascists does not make us fascists.

Your argument gets into a common neoliberal talking point about our institutions. That they are infallible and that any attempt at systemic change would destroy them. So in my argument I’m going to talk about US institutions more broadly for a bit. My point is that our institutions are deeply flawed and without systemic change we will lose them.

Our democracy, our market economy, and our mail service are all essential institutions. However our political, economic, and public institutions are flawed. Our democracy is comprised of anti-democratic institutions such as the Senate and the Electoral College. These allow for minority rule and routinely prevent popular legislation that is supported by the majority of the population. Our economy is in the death throes of late-stage capitalism. The owner class has extracted so much wealth from the worker class the only way from them to gain more wealth is to form an oligarchy around a christo-fascist dictator. And our mail system uncritically allows for the spread of life-threatening disinformation campaigns on well researched and understood topics. Not only do these disinformation campaigns threaten groups of people they threaten our democracy as well.

Our society is a fundamentally useful tool that benefits around 340 million people. If we categorically refuse to improve upon it will eventually self-destruct. The way we are living is not sustainable or equitable. The MAGA movement is the direct result of the material conditions of late-stage capitalism that have been allowed to fester for 40 years thanks to neoliberalism. The fascist movement will only grow unless we are willing to introduce systemic change to the society that spawned it.

I will not tolerate a religious fool or some other kind nutbar deciding they don’t have to deliver my mail because is offends them.

Good, we should not tolerate intolerance.

As a result of that position I will not tolerate some morally justified person from doing the same no matter the reason.

This has nothing to do with morality. This is a strategic decision to defend life and liberty. We should defend ourselves and not be complicit in our own destruction.

Fire anyone who can’t do their job and leave their opinions at home.

Facts aren’t opinions. We know gender affirming care is a collection of lifesaving medical treatments. A ban on gender affirming care would deny trans people the fundamental right to exist. Abortion is a lifesaving medical treatment. Bans on abortion denies people reproductive freedom.

We should not fire people who stand up to fascists. This November 5th, in the US, we will decide if we continue to be a democracy or will allow fascists to replace our democracy with a christo-fascist dictatorship. We should want people in positions of leadership and power to say no to fascists who attempt to subvert our democracy for their own ends.

We as a society need to decide that we know to be dangerous disinformation is not allowed to be transferred over the mail. We know gender affirming care and abortion are lifesaving medical treatments. We know that a ban on gender affirming care would deny trans people the fundamental right to exist. We know banning abortion denies people reproductive freedom. This Canadian woman made an important first step with her civil disobedience. We as a society should follow her example and make the strategic decision to defend life and liberty.

Here in the US, we have an election this November 5th. Fascists in the MAGA movement, a christo-fascist movement, are planning to takeover our democracy. Civil disobedience may soon be the last line of defense to prevent the worst outcomes of fascist policies.

What’s indefensible is fascist intolerance. We should not be complicit in our own destruction.

Sorry to hear about what you’ve discovered with Canada’s charter. It’s definitely good to take breaks from this stuff because it can be discouraging. I try to think about this stuff in lighthearted terms so I can focus on contributing to useful discourse.

Thankfully we live democracies. So, in the long run, we can work to make our societies better places to live for everyone. Hopefully we will be able to leave things in a better state than we found them. I like to think stories like this mom’s story will inspire us all to do better.

Presumably the practice of preventing anti-queer disinformation would fall under the more general practice of preventing disinformation. Cis people can benefit from gender affirming care as well, it’s just more regulated for and discussed in terms of trans people.