seen this post elsewhere? click for explanation
This post got banned from [email protected] for reason “Troll Posting” which is Very Disrespectful in my opinion. 😕
I mean this meme with full respect and love to my fellow community members and I was proud of the discussion and support it was creating.
EDIT: POST RESTORED YAY. (Thank you to the mods it turned out to be a misunderstanding.)
Important clarification/FAQ
I am not calling to coddle or excuse the behavior of bigoted men in any way!
I am calling to be kind and understanding to young men (often ages 10-20) who are very manipulable and succeptible to the massive anti feminist propaganda machine. Hope this clarifies that very important distinction. :)
Very good comments that express key points:
- Detailed summary of the situation if you’re wondering what’s going on
- The rhetorical value of the bear hypothetical and what this means for you
- One example of why the long-term rhetorical value of the hypothetical is poor, in the context of intersectionality
- What does disenfranchisement mean in this context?
- The importance of not asking women to tone down their expressions of fear and frustration
- “But why can’t they just say it nicely?”
- The importance of participation in kindness toward young men, specifically outside the context of people speaking their experiences
It’s not on women to soften their complaints of rape and harassment to try to prevent men from becoming incels and Nazis.
For Fucks Sake
Men can deal with the very mild discomfort of being occasionally reminded women have to always be vigilant.
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Do you realise how pathetic you sound? Women are told to shut their mouth and keep their opinions to themselves all the fucking time. It’s time for men like you to realise that sometimes yeah you should shut up and yeah your opinion is less important than the lived experience of women when it comes down to sexism and SA. Educate yourself please before you embarrass yourself even more.
Invisible women is a great book to start. Very easy to read and full of interesting statistics.
Yikes.
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Oh so it’s fine when it happens the other way, gotta perpetuate the anger somehow!
Maybe everyone should be allowed a voice and nobody should be told to shut up?
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I mean yes I could have used the term “toxic masculinity” but men not steeped deeply in feminist theory tend to react badly to it, and self-identified feminists (usually also not quite firm in theory) getting called out for engaging in it tend to react even worse. And I already used quite a lot of budget on the privilege check, so, yeah, better avoid that one.
Oh your edit.
Because the overall narrative is women are weak and in need of protection while men are not, and if they are, it’s because they are a) toxic male view losers b) toxic female view in some way inherently broken because how can you fail as a man in a world made for men.
Looking at the difference between the toxic perspectives: At least the male one doesn’t lend itself to denying the very existence of men with issues. On the toxic female side you get things like radfems shutting down domestic violence centres for men as it clashes with their idea that men are inherently never victims. Reality, it seems, has a compassionate bias so it has to be denied.
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Facts don’t care about your feelings bro
Once again I recommend reading the book invisible women for more interesting statistics, and an analysis on gender specific data. It turns out that gender specific data is very hard to come by, making a lot of potential other gender gaps undiscovered. Women are much more likely than men to be victims of gender specific data gaps because women were not allowed to work for a long time and women still make up only a small fraction of executives making many women specific problems to stay undiscovered.
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Why are you talking to a 15 year old like that?
It’s not a competition. Let’s all be better
Hey! I am here to tell you don’t shut up. ❤️
I am listening to and validating your stories. I don’t appreciate the other commenters jumping down your throat in this context.
There are a lot of emotions running high on all sides. What is needed is a deep breath and open mindedness but that is hard under a post that is already a reaction to a reaction.
If you haven’t already, check out [email protected], seen some positive stuff over there and I think you could find mutual value :)
I literally just want to say thank you. I’ve been trying to get across something similar, and I’m sure we’d disagree on a few issues. But your compassion and understanding of all points of view is genuinely inspiring
💖
SMH
It was a divisive comment that was certainly fueled by already-high emotions, the mods may have just done what was necessary to keep toxicity and flaming at bay.
I ask you to please not add fuel to the fire—nobody gains anything from the doubling down on hurt feelings. Listen to each other instead of trying to one-up.
I know, the only winning move is not to play. And the mods had limited options
Shoutout to the mods for putting up with the garbage behavior my post shuffled up. 🙏
And thank you friend for doing your part not to get me banned again :)
It’s not personal. You aren’t just a man, right?
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Oh not just “at this point” I’ve been busy figuring out what sticks with people vs. what doesn’t for at least two decades now. Points that, when prodded, don’t cause resistance, where some leverage can be applied that then may or may not avalanche into reevaluation of other topics which would be foolhardy to address directly. Dancing around the neuroses of the collective to enact my grand political vision of *checks notes* universal psychological health.
That all said yes of course we also have issues with gender roles. It’s just that in terms of who sits at the big power levers that’s not terribly relevant any more, it’s not 1850 any more the dam has long since been breached and as women can inherit fortunes nowadays the gender distribution of oligarchs is bound to level out soon enough.
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None of that has anything to do with the conversation. You’re only justifying the fact that you’re agreeing that men don’t get to have problems and should just shut up
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absolutely agree ❤️
which is why i am very thankful for those who put in patience and effort into encouraging young men to see their shortcomings ~ outside the context of women voicing their experiences ~ in order to achieve a more equitable future for all
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… no. thats what nuance is. i agree both with the text of my meme and with this commenter. holding two truths at once that, from a broad and shortsighted perspective, might seem contradictory but are not. the two are not mutually exclusive just because the differences are subtle.
nuance: the whole point of this post. internalize that please 😭
edit: and stop telling me what I am asking women and advocates to do. that is abusive behavior. very not cool, especially in this context. :(
Thank you, it’s hard to fight for nuance in such a polarised world, but I appreciate your tenacity.
We can all be winners if we just talk
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You obviously don’t understand the meme and, at least from where I stand, are part of the problem.
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Stopping the progressive downfall of society is on all of society, period. What’s the end game of alienating half the race?
You’re right about one thing. Women can’t make men not rape, and it doesn’t really fall to them. Does it fall to the good guys, though? The ones who already don’t rape and stand up to their peers who have toxic ideas? And, really, are you reaching anyone who needs to hear it with rhetoric like this?
Changing society is a game everyone has to be on board with. Everyone makes up society, so you can’t just tell half of them they’re not fit and expect it just to work out. Sure, not all men, but quite frankly I’m tired of having to be “one of the good ones”. We already decided labeling someone one of the good ones wasn’t right with black people, we really need to have that fight again?
Yes, precisely. If the majority of men don’t change the culture by standing up for women and against low-key misogyny that’s everywhere then nothing will change and they aren’t really “good guys”.
Dunno. But there’s certainly a LOT of misogynists on Lemmy and I’m going to keep pushing back against them. They probably think they’re feminists, too. Quoting bear statistics, saying “not all men”, equivocating gender and race relations, telling women to “tone down” their complains so they don’t alienate rapists and potential rapists.
Lol, don’t fret. With an attitude like that, you aren’t.
We aren’t talking about race, honey. If they think you can just swap labels you REALLY don’t understand what’s going on. No surprise.
Not gonna bother with the nuance-missing ad hom attacks. Just this one.
If you can’t see that it is 100% an equivalent situation, you have no idea why people are actually upset and just want to join the noise.
Also, don’t call me honey. It’s really degrading, id expect better from someone like you.
Whoosh
Oh no, I got your intent. Believe me.
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Do tell how I am being transphobic. I did not speak of sex nor cis/trans distinctions. And binary trans people (cannot speak to nonbinary) have experience as both genders.
Also how is this pointless? The entire discussion revolves around the Patriarchy: a social system that gives dominance to men. Gender is at the heart of it. Trying to apply this discussion to other fields falls short because it is discussing the nuances of gender politics and the Patriarchy in particular. Which is why trying to overlay this discussion onto race or nationality doesn’t make sense (referring to other common arguments, not this thread in particular).
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Thanks. I’m not sure what it is but any talk of men-women gender privilege gets a LOT of flak from pro-men posters on Lemmy. Unsure if it’s instance-based or just general userbase outside LGBT+ instances. I’ve blocked a few bad ones but I see the flak from across a wide array of instances.
I try to push back hard against disingenuous arguments to try to clue people in. I’ve tried what this thread suggests, and still do try to use logic and honest discussion but when I see the same dumb argument 5 times in a thread, I lose patience.
Calling transphobia in such a disingenuous way is pretty gross. There is nothing wrong with your comment, as trans man I stand fully behind it. Bigots try to divide feminists and trans people often in similar ways but we won’t let them ❤️