Yeah, what the fuck is it with glorifying USSR in those posts?
Five year plan my fucking ass, the whole eastern block was a shithole with no human rights, no liberty and borderline poverty. The progress it made for humanity was negative and we all would be better if lenin and stalin died at birth. Nothing good ever came out of russia and even their socialist revolution turned into oppressing everyone who isn’t at the top very quick.
If you want to advertise socialism maybe don’t point to the worst implementation of it.
Unregulated capitalism isn’t any better, but for an example, there was mass starvation in the USSR doing some 5 year plans.
Ultimately you can’t account for every factor - humans, weather, etc. Markets are more efficient than planning in some aspects, but you can’t allow rent seeking capitalists to exploit everyone either. Nationalize everything truly important and what’s allowed to exist as private enterprise, should be heavily regulated.
Unregulated capitalism isn’t any better, but for an example, there was mass starvation in the USSR doing some 5 year plans.
Famine was regular in Tsarist Russia, once farming was collectivized and industrialized famine ended.
Ultimately you can’t account for every factor - humans, weather, etc. Markets are more efficient than planning in some aspects, but you can’t allow rent seeking capitalists to exploit everyone either. Nationalize everything truly important and what’s allowed to exist as private enterprise, should be heavily regulated.
Lenin was the first person to kickstart the first functional socialist society; regardless of how you look at his policies, he is an obvious choice and an important man in history.
Lenin was the man who presided over the creation and support of new worker power and socialist modes of production.
All he did was create a centralised state capitalism and perpetuated existing class conflict, with his party taking the role of the bourgeoisie.
What separates any form of Marxism from “state capitalism,” in your eyes? Marx was an advocate for central planning.
Secondly, please describe how the CPSU competed against each other in Markets for the purpose of Capital accumulation into their own pockets, and explain why wealth disparity greatly decreased during the USSR and increased after it’s dissolution.
The USSR had numerous struggles and issues, both external and internal, but it was Socialist. I recommend reading Blackshirts and Reds if you want a critical look at the successes and failures of the USSR, and its place in Socialist history.
What sepparates any form of Marxism from “state capitalism,” in your eyes? Marx was an advocate for central planning.
Marx was also an advocate of worker ownership of the MoP, not state ownership.
The state owning and using force to control the MoP just recreates capitalist class dynamics.
I am not a fan of central planning personally, but you can have a centrally planned economy that is not state capitalist, as long as the planning committees are actually made up of workers and delegates chosen by the workers.
Immediately after the revolution, the existing workers and factory councils were either destroyed or coopted by the party.
Secondly, please describe how the CPSU competed against each other in Markets for the purpose of Capital accumulation into their own pockets, and explain why wealth disparity greatly decreased during the USSR and increased after it’s dissolution.
I have honestly no idea what strawman you are trying to beat up here.
I never said anything about internal competition, I was talking about state capitalism as a system that perpetuates capitalist class structure with the state and agents of the state replacing the bourgeoisie.
Marx was also an advocate of worker ownership of the MoP, not state ownership.
Marx’s State specifically referred to the elements of government that enforce class dynamics, like Private Property Rights. Marx was fully in favor of government, just not the State.
The state owning and using force to control the MoP just recreates capitalist class dynamics.
In what manner? If you eliminate market competition, Capital accumulation, and the necessity for profit, then you have fundamentally moved beyond Capitalism. The CPSU did not compete against each other and pocket vast amounts of profits, and the Soviets were run democratically. It’s fundamentally and entirely different.
I am not a fan of central planning personally, but you can have a centrally planned economy that is not state capitalist, as long as the planning committees are actually made up of workers and delegates chosen by the workers.
So then the USSR was Socialist, after all. The Soviet Union was based on Soviet Democracy, worker councils with elected delegates. There was corruption, and there were inner-power conflicts, but the structure overall was Socialist.
Immediately after the revolution, the existing workers and factory councils were either destroyed or coopted by the party.
The Soviets never went away.
I have honestly no idea what strawman you are trying to beat up here.
I never said anything about internal competition, I was talking about state capitalism as a system that perpetuates capitalist class structure with the state and agents of the state replacing the bourgeoisie.
There’s no strawman here, you claimed that the agents of the state functioned as the bourgeoisie, and I asked how they replicated the functions of the bourgeoise, the necessary components of which include competition and production for individual profit. The lack of those means it cannot be considered Capitalist.
I suggest reading Critique of the Gotha Programme, it might help you get a clearer understanding of the transition to Communism in Marx’s own words.
Additionally, I recommend reading Blackshirts and Reds if you want a critical look at the successes and failures of the USSR, and its place in Socialist history.
Marx’s State specifically referred to the elements of government that enforce class dynamics, like Private Property Rights. Marx was fully in favor of government, just not the State.
You’re shadowboxxing again, I never mentioned the state/government distinction.
Completely pointless either way since the USSR was not state abolitionist.
In what manner? If you eliminate market competition, Capital accumulation, and the necessity for profit, then you have fundamentally moved beyond Capitalism. The CPSU did not compete against each other and pocket vast amounts of profits, and the Soviets were run democratically. It’s fundamentally and entirely different
Because competition isn’t what creates class disparity, the problem is the ownership and control part, which was entirely reserved for members of the party.
Because the party, which was controlled from the top down had complete economic and political control over the system, it essentially just replaced the ruling class of old.
Yes, the competition was mostly removed but the class structure stayed basically the same.
So then the USSR was Socialist, after all. The Soviet Union was based on Soviet Democracy, worker councils with elected delegates. There was corruption, and there were inner-power conflicts, but the structure overall was Socialist.
The Soviets never went away.
But there was no worker control of these institutions, they were entirely controlled from the top down by party officials.
If there were elections they were a sham, basically nothing else than virtue signaling to the values the communist party supposedly had but in practice despised.
There’s no strawman here, you claimed that the agents of the state functioned as the bourgeoisie, and I asked how they replicated the functions of the bourgeoise, the necessary components of which include competition and production for individual profit. The lack of those means it cannot be considered Capitalist.
I don’t need to reply to this for the 759th time.
I suggest reading Critique of the Gotha Programme, it might help you get a clearer understanding of the transition to Communism in Marx’s own words
MLs flipping a coin on if they should tell someone to read Critique of the Gotha Programme or On Authority today.
You’re shadowboxxing again, I never mentioned the state/government distinction.
Completely pointless either way since the USSR was not state abolitionist.
What structural aspects of the USSR differed from what Marx advocated for?
Because competition isn’t what creates class disparity, the problem is the ownership and control part, which was entirely reserved for members of the party.
Incorrect. Competition is key to accmulation and production for profit along Capitalist lines. Ownership was done via government, yes, and was participated in by the public. The Party was the group that largely ran the government, but you could join it if you wished.
If there were elections they were a sham, basically nothing else than virtue signaling to the values the communist party supposedly had but in practice despised.
There were elections. I would like justification for your claim that they were a sham.
MLs flipping a coin on if they should tell someone to read Critique of the Gotha Programme or On Authority today.
Marxists suggest reading Marx and Engels, shocker.
No, Lenin was not a genocidal dictator. Additionally, whether you agree with his contributions to Marxism or not, he remains the most influential Marxist of the 20th century, every major Marxist org since Lenin has been influenced by his analysis of Imperialism, the State, and Revolution, whether it be via accepting them, or deliberately rejecting them.
You could dispute the genocidal bit but you cannot in good faith argue that the communist party wasn’t dictatorial.
Additionally, whether you agree with his contributions to Marxism or not, he remains the most influential Marxist of the 20th century, every major Marxist org since Lenin has been influenced by his analysis of Imperialism
And I believe the OPs point is that that’s a bad thing.
We shouldn’t be basing our politics and imagery today off the guy who fucked socialism for a century.
You could dispute the genocidal bit but you cannot in good faith argue that the communist party wasn’t dictatorial.
In what manner was the Communist Party “dictatorial?” It held immense power, yes, but it wasn’t 1 dude deciding everything, there was worker participation in how it ran and the party itself was democratically run. There was corruption, yes, but it wasn’t a dictatorship either.
And I believe the OPs point is that that’s a bad thing.
We shouldn’t be basing our politics and imagery today off the guy who fucked socialism for a century.
How, exactly, did Lenin “fuck socialism for a century?”
In what manner was the Communist Party “dictatorial?” It held immense power, yes, but it wasn’t 1 dude deciding everything,
Ah yes, as long as there is at least 2 dudes deciding everything it’s not a dictatorship.
there was worker participation in how it ran and the party itself was democratically run.
As long as you liked the way that the party wanted things to be, yes.
How, exactly, did Lenin “fuck socialism for a century?”
His party went on to encourage other revolutionary groups to adapt the anti-socialist Leninist-Stalinist structure, at times actively sabotaging socialist movements that were structured differently.
In those times you either fell behind the ML party line or had no support from the international movement, the russian communists absolutely fucked it all up.
Ah yes, as long as there is at least 2 dudes deciding everything it’s not a dictatorship.
There were far more than “2 dudes” in the CPSU, and far, far more than 2 dudes in the USSR that contributed to the electoral process and voted within it.
As long as you liked the way that the party wanted things to be, yes.
Yes, generally, though you could join the party and influence it from within.
His party went on to encourage other revolutionary groups to adapt the anti-socialist Leninist-Stalinist structure, at times actively sabotaging socialist movements that were structured differently.
How was it “anti-socialist?” Where is the departure from Marx in Lenin?
In those times you either fell behind the ML party line or had no support from the international movement, the russian communists absolutely fucked it all up.
What other movements have succeeded at all? Why do you think Marxists generally are made up of MLs?
I recommend reading Blackshirts and Reds if you want a critical look at the successes and failures of the USSR, and its place in Socialist history.
Was Stalin the dictatorelected leader at the time of the betrayal and destruction of the Black Army of Ukraine? Was Stalin the one in power right after the revolution when they started killing and arresting anarchists?
Trotsky was in charge of the red army wrt the suppression of the Makhnovists, so your ire directed at Lenin is misplaced. Even the idea that Lenin had total dictatorial control is a slanderous myth. He was a sheer intellectual force of history, committed to revolution. The Bolsheviks were flawed and contained many bellicose elements such as Stalin; and Lenin was content if not often forced to leave many matters in the hands of Trotsky, Kamanev, Zinoviev and others. If anything, Lenin didn’t have enough control over the Bolsheviks
I already said this in reply to your other comment, but I’ll repeat it here.
Lenin appointed Trotsky as Vice-chairman, and it’s believed Lenin wanted Trotsky as his successor; you can’t just shift all blame from one to another and pretend Lenin lived in a different reality when he was leader of the party.
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Yeah, what the fuck is it with glorifying USSR in those posts? Five year plan my fucking ass, the whole eastern block was a shithole with no human rights, no liberty and borderline poverty. The progress it made for humanity was negative and we all would be better if lenin and stalin died at birth. Nothing good ever came out of russia and even their socialist revolution turned into oppressing everyone who isn’t at the top very quick.
If you want to advertise socialism maybe don’t point to the worst implementation of it.
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The 5 year plans were part of what made it so bad, too.
I’m not saying completely free markets are the solution, but a totally planned economy is set to fail because it’s impossible to plan for everything.
What do you mean? Can you provide an example, and how Capitalism can better account for it?
Unregulated capitalism isn’t any better, but for an example, there was mass starvation in the USSR doing some 5 year plans.
Ultimately you can’t account for every factor - humans, weather, etc. Markets are more efficient than planning in some aspects, but you can’t allow rent seeking capitalists to exploit everyone either. Nationalize everything truly important and what’s allowed to exist as private enterprise, should be heavily regulated.
Famine was regular in Tsarist Russia, once farming was collectivized and industrialized famine ended.
None of that is specific, all of that is vibes.
Hey now, if the people over at lemmy.ml could read they’d be very upset!
Lenin was the first person to kickstart the first functional socialist society; regardless of how you look at his policies, he is an obvious choice and an important man in history.
Also, Lenin did not commit genocide.
Lenin was the man who presided over the suppression and destruction of existing worker power and socialist modes of production.
All he did was create a centralised state capitalism and perpetuated existing class conflict, with his party taking the role of the bourgeoisie.
Lenin was the man who presided over the creation and support of new worker power and socialist modes of production.
What separates any form of Marxism from “state capitalism,” in your eyes? Marx was an advocate for central planning.
Secondly, please describe how the CPSU competed against each other in Markets for the purpose of Capital accumulation into their own pockets, and explain why wealth disparity greatly decreased during the USSR and increased after it’s dissolution.
The USSR had numerous struggles and issues, both external and internal, but it was Socialist. I recommend reading Blackshirts and Reds if you want a critical look at the successes and failures of the USSR, and its place in Socialist history.
Marx was also an advocate of worker ownership of the MoP, not state ownership.
The state owning and using force to control the MoP just recreates capitalist class dynamics.
I am not a fan of central planning personally, but you can have a centrally planned economy that is not state capitalist, as long as the planning committees are actually made up of workers and delegates chosen by the workers.
Immediately after the revolution, the existing workers and factory councils were either destroyed or coopted by the party.
I have honestly no idea what strawman you are trying to beat up here.
I never said anything about internal competition, I was talking about state capitalism as a system that perpetuates capitalist class structure with the state and agents of the state replacing the bourgeoisie.
Marx’s State specifically referred to the elements of government that enforce class dynamics, like Private Property Rights. Marx was fully in favor of government, just not the State.
In what manner? If you eliminate market competition, Capital accumulation, and the necessity for profit, then you have fundamentally moved beyond Capitalism. The CPSU did not compete against each other and pocket vast amounts of profits, and the Soviets were run democratically. It’s fundamentally and entirely different.
So then the USSR was Socialist, after all. The Soviet Union was based on Soviet Democracy, worker councils with elected delegates. There was corruption, and there were inner-power conflicts, but the structure overall was Socialist.
The Soviets never went away.
There’s no strawman here, you claimed that the agents of the state functioned as the bourgeoisie, and I asked how they replicated the functions of the bourgeoise, the necessary components of which include competition and production for individual profit. The lack of those means it cannot be considered Capitalist.
I suggest reading Critique of the Gotha Programme, it might help you get a clearer understanding of the transition to Communism in Marx’s own words.
Additionally, I recommend reading Blackshirts and Reds if you want a critical look at the successes and failures of the USSR, and its place in Socialist history.
You’re shadowboxxing again, I never mentioned the state/government distinction.
Completely pointless either way since the USSR was not state abolitionist.
Because competition isn’t what creates class disparity, the problem is the ownership and control part, which was entirely reserved for members of the party.
Because the party, which was controlled from the top down had complete economic and political control over the system, it essentially just replaced the ruling class of old.
Yes, the competition was mostly removed but the class structure stayed basically the same.
But there was no worker control of these institutions, they were entirely controlled from the top down by party officials.
If there were elections they were a sham, basically nothing else than virtue signaling to the values the communist party supposedly had but in practice despised.
I don’t need to reply to this for the 759th time.
MLs flipping a coin on if they should tell someone to read Critique of the Gotha Programme or On Authority today.
What structural aspects of the USSR differed from what Marx advocated for?
Incorrect. Competition is key to accmulation and production for profit along Capitalist lines. Ownership was done via government, yes, and was participated in by the public. The Party was the group that largely ran the government, but you could join it if you wished.
There were elections. I would like justification for your claim that they were a sham.
Marxists suggest reading Marx and Engels, shocker.
You can’t get off the dialogue tree man.
No, Lenin was not a genocidal dictator. Additionally, whether you agree with his contributions to Marxism or not, he remains the most influential Marxist of the 20th century, every major Marxist org since Lenin has been influenced by his analysis of Imperialism, the State, and Revolution, whether it be via accepting them, or deliberately rejecting them.
You could dispute the genocidal bit but you cannot in good faith argue that the communist party wasn’t dictatorial.
And I believe the OPs point is that that’s a bad thing.
We shouldn’t be basing our politics and imagery today off the guy who fucked socialism for a century.
In what manner was the Communist Party “dictatorial?” It held immense power, yes, but it wasn’t 1 dude deciding everything, there was worker participation in how it ran and the party itself was democratically run. There was corruption, yes, but it wasn’t a dictatorship either.
How, exactly, did Lenin “fuck socialism for a century?”
Ah yes, as long as there is at least 2 dudes deciding everything it’s not a dictatorship.
As long as you liked the way that the party wanted things to be, yes.
His party went on to encourage other revolutionary groups to adapt the anti-socialist Leninist-Stalinist structure, at times actively sabotaging socialist movements that were structured differently.
In those times you either fell behind the ML party line or had no support from the international movement, the russian communists absolutely fucked it all up.
There were far more than “2 dudes” in the CPSU, and far, far more than 2 dudes in the USSR that contributed to the electoral process and voted within it.
Yes, generally, though you could join the party and influence it from within.
How was it “anti-socialist?” Where is the departure from Marx in Lenin?
What other movements have succeeded at all? Why do you think Marxists generally are made up of MLs?
I recommend reading Blackshirts and Reds if you want a critical look at the successes and failures of the USSR, and its place in Socialist history.
It’s almost like some Mario-mustache-ass pedophile resented other socialist movements for threatening his order.
I am honestly tired, you people all peddle the same nonsense talking points and link the same shitty books and essays.
MLs have not had an independent thought since the early 20th century and it really fucking shows.
You’re flinging mud because you can’t or don’t want to respond. Linking Marx is linking “shitty books and essays?”
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He wasn’t, but the fact that his system was so easily taken over by someone who was should be reason enough to distrust ML.
This dudes pro Tsar lol
Are you thinking of Stalin?
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Was Stalin the
dictatorelected leader at the time of the betrayal and destruction of the Black Army of Ukraine? Was Stalin the one in power right after the revolution when they started killing and arresting anarchists?Fuck Lenin.
Trotsky was in charge of the red army wrt the suppression of the Makhnovists, so your ire directed at Lenin is misplaced. Even the idea that Lenin had total dictatorial control is a slanderous myth. He was a sheer intellectual force of history, committed to revolution. The Bolsheviks were flawed and contained many bellicose elements such as Stalin; and Lenin was content if not often forced to leave many matters in the hands of Trotsky, Kamanev, Zinoviev and others. If anything, Lenin didn’t have enough control over the Bolsheviks
I already said this in reply to your other comment, but I’ll repeat it here.
Lenin appointed Trotsky as Vice-chairman, and it’s believed Lenin wanted Trotsky as his successor; you can’t just shift all blame from one to another and pretend Lenin lived in a different reality when he was leader of the party.
And I’ll repeat my point here as well, Trotsky didn’t become General Secretary, which disproves the idea that Lenin was an absolute dictator