You have to remember that the pre-modern period was still very much a time of naked self-interest
As opposed to now? I think believing we are inherently different than ancient people is a byproduct of how we record and review historical context.
When the US invaded Iraq, it was professing to “spread freedom”. A couple decades later and it’s pretty apparent that freedom was a pretext to fulfill thinly veiled self interest.
When the Gauls and Germanics went on raids, their thinking wasn’t “Dohohoho, time to commit some CRIMES”, but rather, “This is the way the world works, I’m taking an opportunity”, the way that a merchant might eye a good deal
How exactly are we determining this? Thats probably what the Romans thought of the Germanic tribes and the Gauls, but we don’t exactly have a lot of primary sources from the people we’re talking about. Of course the empire is going to boil down their enemies motives while guiding their own.
The Romans, if you will, saw there as being an additional ‘barrier’ of a need for justification to go and murder and plunder their enemies without the slightest hint of conscience - typically
I don’t really see any evidence of this… Most of their justifications were just to convince others in the ruling class to get on board with one person’s or a groups personal vendetta or get rich quick scheme.
The Romans didn’t really need a justification to rape and pillage their own cities, let alone others.
As opposed to now? I think believing we are inherently different than ancient people is a byproduct of how we record and review historical context.
… believing that we’re culturally similar to ancient peoples is an incredibly dangerous and distorting way to view the past.
When the US invaded Iraq, it was professing to “spread freedom”. A couple decades later and it’s pretty apparent that freedom was a pretext to fulfill thinly veiled self interest.
Where to begin?
“Obfuscated self-interest” was specified.
The justification for the illegal invasion of Iraq wasn’t to ‘spread freedom’, it was a (false) allegation of violation of international law regarding possession of WMDs.
What self-interest was fulfilled by invading Iraq? Ideology was a bigger factor there than any conception of national self-interest.
How exactly are we determining this? Thats probably what the Romans thought of the Germanic tribes and the Gauls, but we don’t exactly have a lot of primary sources from the people we’re talking about. Of course the empire is going to boil down their enemies motives while guiding their own.
Because the Greeks and the Persians wrote of their own motivations in largely the same way - largely sans justification. Because both later and earlier European civilizations wrote of their motivations in the same way. Because just-war theory doesn’t re-emerge until the ascendency of Christianity and Islam, and even then, it is usually ignored in internecine faith conflicts until the 16th century AD.
I don’t really see any evidence of this… Most of their justifications were just to convince others in the ruling class to get on board with one person’s or a groups personal vendetta or get rich quick scheme.
What evidence would you accept? How much should I fetch for you?
The Romans didn’t really need a justification to rape and pillage their own cities, let alone others.
Right, But you also claimed that other societies at the time didn’t do the same…
My point was that all societies thinly veil their self interest.
justification for the illegal invasion of Iraq wasn’t to ‘spread freedom’, it was a (false) allegation of violation of international law regarding possession of WMDs.
Lol, a bit of a pedantic argument. It and Afghanistan were obviously marketed as a stand for “freedom” at the time.
What self-interest was fulfilled by invading Iraq? Ideology was a bigger factor there than any conception of national self-interest.
You’re asking what self interest the Bush administration had for invading Iraq…? How much time do you have?
Because the Greeks and the Persians wrote of their own motivations in largely the same way - largely sans justification.
First of all, Persians and Greek often justified their conquest via the gods, or nationalism.
Secondly Motivation and justifications can be the same thing depending on the social mores of the society.
Lastly, you are utilizing examples of societies where the only people who were writing within the historical context were part of the ruling structure. Thats akin to getting acess to the email of Dick Cheney’s actual motivations for invading Iraq vs the story they told the media.
What evidence would you accept? How much should I fetch for you?
Any would be a good start?
What
During the year of 4 emperors Cremona was occupied by vitellian troops, they battled an army outside Cremona led by Antonius and lost. Cremona immediately surrendered and was subsequently raped and pillaged for no good reason.
“Antonius then attacked Cremona, which surrendered. Cremona was sacked and then burned by the victorious troops over four days; many residents were raped, murdered and robbed.[3] Antonius was embarrassed by the episode and forbade the keeping of Cremonans as slaves, resulting in many being murdered by their captors to evade punishment.[4]”
Edit: accidentally skipped your first claim
believing that we’re culturally similar to ancient peoples is an incredibly dangerous and distorting way to view the past.
This is kinda ridiculous considering that our legal and political bodies are highly influenced specifically by the Romans, who were in turn highly influenced by the Greek and Persians.
Right, But you also claimed that other societies at the time didn’t do the same…
My point was that all societies thinly veil their self interest.
How many quotes will it take from societies not veiling their self-interest and, in fact, taking great pride in their naked self-interest, would it take to change your mind? Or is that a lost cause?
Lol, a bit of a pedantic argument. It and Afghanistan were obviously marketed as a stand for “freedom” at the time.
Jesus Christ.
You’re asking what self interest the Bush administration had for invading Iraq…? How much time do you have?
Enough time to easily show that ideological concerns were major, and national interest was minimal, despite the claims peddled.
First of all, Persians and Greek often justified their conquest via the gods, or nationalism.
Holy shit. We’re really just applying the casus belli of much later periods to antiquity, because it ‘feels right’, huh?
Secondly Motivation and justifications can be the same thing depending on the social mores of the society.
That’s an excellent way of saying nothing useful at all.
Lastly, you are utilizing examples of societies where the only people who were writing within the historical context were part of the ruling structure. Thats akin to getting acess to the email of Dick Cheney’s actual motivations for invading Iraq vs the story they told the media.
Oh, okay, so we’re changing our argument from “It was only the Romans who wrote about the matter!” to “All pre-modern writing is untrustworthy!”, cool cool cool.
Any would be a good start?
Why would I fetch anything without criteria for what would be regarded as a valid counterargument? I’ve done this stupid fucking dance with too many fucking people to count - people who come in with bizarre preconceptions about the past and have no interest in re-examining them, who freely dismiss any evidence given and delight in pissing away time and effort.
Tell me what you’ll accept as valid, or there’s no point in me playing dumb games for you to move the goalposts like you did with the judgement of written sources in general already.
During the year of 4 emperors Cremona was occupied by vitellian troops, they battled an army outside Cremona led by Antonius and lost. Cremona immediately surrendered and was subsequently raped and pillaged for no good reason.
“A city during the first civil war in almost 100 years was looted by out-of-control troops hailing from the other side of the Empire against their commander’s orders and was roundly condemned by the histories”, clearly, you have proven that the Romans loved looting their own cities for no reason.
This is kinda ridiculous considering that our legal and political bodies are highly influenced specifically by the Romans, who were in turn highly influenced by the Greek and Persians.
I can trace Roman legal influence in the West through some 1500 years, and let me fucking tell you, that’s a very far cry from being culturally similar to the fucking Romans at any point, much less the diverse sources Western influence of some 500 years of Roman law drew from.
As opposed to now? I think believing we are inherently different than ancient people is a byproduct of how we record and review historical context.
When the US invaded Iraq, it was professing to “spread freedom”. A couple decades later and it’s pretty apparent that freedom was a pretext to fulfill thinly veiled self interest.
How exactly are we determining this? Thats probably what the Romans thought of the Germanic tribes and the Gauls, but we don’t exactly have a lot of primary sources from the people we’re talking about. Of course the empire is going to boil down their enemies motives while guiding their own.
I don’t really see any evidence of this… Most of their justifications were just to convince others in the ruling class to get on board with one person’s or a groups personal vendetta or get rich quick scheme.
The Romans didn’t really need a justification to rape and pillage their own cities, let alone others.
… believing that we’re culturally similar to ancient peoples is an incredibly dangerous and distorting way to view the past.
Where to begin?
“Obfuscated self-interest” was specified.
The justification for the illegal invasion of Iraq wasn’t to ‘spread freedom’, it was a (false) allegation of violation of international law regarding possession of WMDs.
What self-interest was fulfilled by invading Iraq? Ideology was a bigger factor there than any conception of national self-interest.
Because the Greeks and the Persians wrote of their own motivations in largely the same way - largely sans justification. Because both later and earlier European civilizations wrote of their motivations in the same way. Because just-war theory doesn’t re-emerge until the ascendency of Christianity and Islam, and even then, it is usually ignored in internecine faith conflicts until the 16th century AD.
What evidence would you accept? How much should I fetch for you?
What
Right, But you also claimed that other societies at the time didn’t do the same…
My point was that all societies thinly veil their self interest.
Lol, a bit of a pedantic argument. It and Afghanistan were obviously marketed as a stand for “freedom” at the time.
You’re asking what self interest the Bush administration had for invading Iraq…? How much time do you have?
First of all, Persians and Greek often justified their conquest via the gods, or nationalism.
Secondly Motivation and justifications can be the same thing depending on the social mores of the society.
Lastly, you are utilizing examples of societies where the only people who were writing within the historical context were part of the ruling structure. Thats akin to getting acess to the email of Dick Cheney’s actual motivations for invading Iraq vs the story they told the media.
Any would be a good start?
During the year of 4 emperors Cremona was occupied by vitellian troops, they battled an army outside Cremona led by Antonius and lost. Cremona immediately surrendered and was subsequently raped and pillaged for no good reason.
“Antonius then attacked Cremona, which surrendered. Cremona was sacked and then burned by the victorious troops over four days; many residents were raped, murdered and robbed.[3] Antonius was embarrassed by the episode and forbade the keeping of Cremonans as slaves, resulting in many being murdered by their captors to evade punishment.[4]”
Edit: accidentally skipped your first claim
This is kinda ridiculous considering that our legal and political bodies are highly influenced specifically by the Romans, who were in turn highly influenced by the Greek and Persians.
How many quotes will it take from societies not veiling their self-interest and, in fact, taking great pride in their naked self-interest, would it take to change your mind? Or is that a lost cause?
Jesus Christ.
Enough time to easily show that ideological concerns were major, and national interest was minimal, despite the claims peddled.
Holy shit. We’re really just applying the casus belli of much later periods to antiquity, because it ‘feels right’, huh?
That’s an excellent way of saying nothing useful at all.
Oh, okay, so we’re changing our argument from “It was only the Romans who wrote about the matter!” to “All pre-modern writing is untrustworthy!”, cool cool cool.
Why would I fetch anything without criteria for what would be regarded as a valid counterargument? I’ve done this stupid fucking dance with too many fucking people to count - people who come in with bizarre preconceptions about the past and have no interest in re-examining them, who freely dismiss any evidence given and delight in pissing away time and effort.
Tell me what you’ll accept as valid, or there’s no point in me playing dumb games for you to move the goalposts like you did with the judgement of written sources in general already.
“A city during the first civil war in almost 100 years was looted by out-of-control troops hailing from the other side of the Empire against their commander’s orders and was roundly condemned by the histories”, clearly, you have proven that the Romans loved looting their own cities for no reason.
I can trace Roman legal influence in the West through some 1500 years, and let me fucking tell you, that’s a very far cry from being culturally similar to the fucking Romans at any point, much less the diverse sources Western influence of some 500 years of Roman law drew from.