Back in 2012, I only heard about Sleeping Dogs through word of mouth. Perhaps the marketing was really poor?
Gameplay-wise, I agree. It starts off pretty solid but once you get further, much of the open world feels samey and the missions start to include too much shooting, imo. That, and I didn’t really gel much with the melee combat after a couple of hours, but it seems like I’m in the minority on that. Finally, I feel like a lot of open world games at the time had a similar “formula”; they had many icon activities on the map, which were more-or-less duplicates of themselves.
I’ll focus on the positives, because there definitely were some:
Absolutely agree on the graphics. There’s parts of the map that are pretty scenic (beach areas, city areas with more trees and vegetation), and night time looks amazing. Graphics wise it’s hard to believe it came out 13 years ago.
I liked the music selection and I also thought the driving physics were pretty neat. Also, I liked that there were many things to buy, so cash isn’t just some point system.
Somewhat unrelated, but in your original post you mentioned losing immersion by the amount of killing you do in Sleeping Dogs. Have you played Metro Exodus? I feel like that game was smart about rewarding players who chose a non-lethal playstyle.
It’s funny you say the open world felt samey, because one of my main takeaways after playing this game was “man, CDPR really hit it out of the park with architecture and level design for Cyberpunk 2077”. Hong Kong looked great and crowded- particularly at night like you said - but it didn’t have nearly the same distinctly different districts with identifiable character as you’d find in Night City.
The melee combat only got somewhat interesting towards the end of the game when there were some enemies that could resist your counters, otherwise it was mostly a case of waiting for someone to flash red and pressing Y. There are some interesting ideas with the techniques you can unlock and the combos, but most of it felt like window dressing more than necessary tools. The only thing you need besides counters is the upgrade that lets you disarm enemies carrying melee weapons.
Finally, I feel like a lot of open world games at the time had a similar “formula”; they had many icon activities on the map, which were more-or-less duplicates of themselves.
This is a great example of the game design sickness Ubisoft inflicted upon the world with the success of the Assassin’s Creed franchise. It’s released right in the window where that was all the rage, and this is absolutely peak Ubisoft Open World^TM. But that trend held for far too long - I’ve leveled that criticism against even titles as recent as Ghost of Tsushima.
The music selection was good, but I kind of wish the radio selection was deeper and not as wide. I would have preferred somewhat fewer channels but with a bigger selection of songs on each. I also missed more humour and talk show style radio. The driving did feel pretty good and the races were fun, although the AI was so atrocious at driving there was hardly a challenge. But throwing the cars into corners with handbrake turns and counter steering was enjoyable and I liked how the different cars had wildly different characteristics.
I still need to check out Cyberpunk 2077. I held off due to its launch but apparently the game is in a much stronger state now. Glad to hear that the level design is solid.
This is a great example of the game design sickness Ubisoft inflicted upon the world with the success of the Assassin’s Creed franchise. It’s released right in the window where that was all the rage, and this is absolutely peak Ubisoft Open World^TM. But that trend held for far too long - I’ve leveled that criticism against even titles as recent as Ghost of Tsushima.
YES. I also dropped Ghost of Tsushima, Days Gone, Far Cry 4 for the same reason. Like the formula “works” for a mass audience, but man does it just not work for me anymore.
At this point, give me well thought-out level designs. If I want emergent gameplay and natural discovery, I will play any of the well-received immersive sims like Dishonored or Deus Ex.
Also, unrelated, but have you played Metro Exodus?
The game is roughly 50% open world, 50% linear. The open world levels feel natural, and the linear levels are well thought out.
I feel like the game was smart about rewarding players who chose a non-lethal playstyle as well. The consequences of being a murder machine are baked into the story and gameplay outcomes, in a way that makes sense.
I still need to check out Cyberpunk 2077. I held off due to its launch but apparently the game is in a much stronger state now. Glad to hear that the level design is solid.
How you will like it will depend on what you expected of it, I think. Some people wanted a completely free RPG where you could be whoever you wanted and play in an open world as dynamic as RDR2 - the game isn’t that. Much like the Witcher 3 you’re playing as a specific character and you can only choose small variations in how that character acts. But V will always be V. The open world is also much less dynamic than people wanted, but that can be said about Witcher 3 as well so I don’t know what people were expecting. CDPR aren’t Rockstar.
There are also some fundamental problems with the game that are too big to be fixable with patches. I’m talking stuff like reactivity to decisions, pacing for parts of the main quest and how well (or rather poorly) the story they wanted to tell meshes with an open world game.
That being said I think the game is now in the best state it can be for what it is, and that state is still a pretty damn good game. I really enjoyed the story, I thought it had some great characters, and the revamped post 2.0 gameplay and skill tree feel good. It has great writing and voice acting, Night City is beautifully designed and art direction in general is great. I found the game really immersive and enjoyable, and would definitely recommend it. Especially if you can get it on sale.
It also looks phenomenal and if you have a good PC that can play it maxed out (including Path Tracing) it’s one of the prettiest games out there. Look for the Ultra+ mod for further optimization and visual oomph.
YES. I also dropped Ghost of Tsushima, Days Gone, Far Cry 4 for the same reason. Like the formula “works” for a mass audience, but man does it just not work for me anymore.
I had to physically force myself to finish Ghost of Tsushima and during the last 25% or so of it I was actively resenting it. In my opinion, it is the single most overrated game of all time. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad game - I would give it a 7.5/10 - but the delta between what I think of it and the general opinion of it is the biggest. It is patently not the “game of a generation” or some such shit. It’s way too long, the writing and voice acting is way too dour, overly serious and monotone and the quest design is way too poor. Combine this with a standard Ubisoft Open World^TM and I don’t know what people are seeing. The combat is solid, but not enough to carry it for 60 hours. The game is stunning though and immaculately optimised, I’ll give it that. Ran like a dream on my fat old first gen PS4 (in stark contrast to the multiple minute loading screens of Witcher 3).
Also, unrelated, but have you played Metro Exodus?
The game is roughly 50% open world, 50% linear. The open world levels feel natural, and the linear levels are well thought out.
I feel like the game was smart about rewarding players who chose a non-lethal playstyle as well. The consequences of being a murder machine are baked into the story and gameplay outcomes, in a way that makes sense.
It’s on my extensive backlog. I played 2033 and Last Light last year. Loved the first game, the second not so much. I’ve heard only good things about Exodus though so I’m looking forward to it. It’s a candidate for my next game, but I’m not sure I’m feeling it quite yet. Otherwise I’ve got Deus Ex: Mankind Divided, BioShock: Infinite and Skald: Against the Black Priory in the immediate pipeline. Oh, and the entire Yakuza franchise, probably starting with Kiwami?
Cyberpunk: I see. I played the Witcher 3 (and all of its DLC) so my expectations seem to be inline with what you said. I’ll check it out when it’s on sale. I tend to take breaks from games that are thematically similar, so I’ll check it out after I’ve “recovered” from Mankind Divided (more on that later)
Ghost of Tsushima: Yeah I played parts of it during a Playstation Premium sale and felt no regrets dropping it. I had the impression that it would be ok, but definitely not worth 60 hours of my time.
Metro: Similar viewpoints on the Metro series. I’d say get to Exodus when you are ready. It was on my waitlist for about 2 years.
Mankind divided: It seems the consensus online is that Human Revolution is overall better than Mankind Divided, but Mankind Divided is better gameplay wise. Personally, I liked Mankind Divided more than Human Revolution, although the former has its fair share of flaws. I can go into them if you want, although personally I think its better to just play it and form your own thoughts on it. Personally, I made peace with the flaws and accept the game for what it is. (Also, its “A Criminal Past” DLC is amazing and highly replayable)
Bioshock infiinite: It’s been a few years since I played this, but from what I remember its a solid action shooter. It’s not so much an immersive sim like the previous entries. Go into it with the right expectations and it’s a fun time.
Yakuza: My special interest series, lmao. I have played most games. However, I have not played Infinite Wealth, nor the spinoff games (Man Who Erased His Name, Pirate Yakuza in hawaii, Samurai games, or zombie spinoff).
I’ve also played the Judgement series, which feels like Yakuza meets Ace Attorney.
As for which to start with… that’s tricky. I played the original Yakuza back in 2004 (with Mark Hamil’s joker voice acting for Majima), took a 15+ year hiatus from the series, returned to the series with 0, and then binged most of the mainline games during covid lmao.
I’ve read some things about Mankind Divided, mainly critiquing the first hour or so and the abrupt ending, including an unsatisfying ending. So if those are the flaws I’m braced for them. Otherwise I’ve heard pretty good things. It’s actually installed already and quite likely my next game, though I saw Skald is on sale now so it’s making a late charge.
Bioshock Infinite sounds like what I’d expected. But I wouldn’t call either Bioshock 1 or 2 an imsim? They’re just tight shooters with some occasionally great writing (mostly in the first one) and some stellar world building.
I could do with some advice about Yakuza though. I’ve heard three suggestions: start with 0, start with Kiwami or start with the original Yakuza (and play them in release order). It seems to me Kiwami is a solid middle ground compromise as a first game, but I am aware it will lead to a downgrade in quality between Kiwami 2 and Yakuza 3. On the other hand, starting with the original Yakuza and playing in release order is most “correct”, and probably the best experience if I do end up loving the series - but I’m worried the original Yakuza will feel old and clunky and put me off the series as a whole.
It seems like you’ve heard everything about Mankind Divided. The other thing is that the first two DLC should have been included in the game. The first one is forgettable, the second one is decent.
In hindsight, I think imsim is the wrong genre name for Bioshock 1 or 2. I wasn’t sure how to word it, but I guess I mean that you’ll definitely see a difference in pacing and overall gameplay compared to Infinite.
Yakuza: So while this is my favorite series, I don’t want to ignore its flaws. I tried replaying the PS2 games recently and they were way too clunky and miss a lot of quality of life features that the sequels / remakes have.
Honestly, I would just skip the PS2 games and substitute them with Kiwami.
The original saga is every numbered game from 0 - > 6. The consensus (which I agree with) is that 0 is the strongest one in this saga.
Also, ending the saga with 6 sets up 7 (Like a Dragon) pretty well. Also, Judgement takes place between 6 and 7, although this series doesn’t reference Yakuza that much (and vice versa)
There are a couple of orders that make sense
Kiwami -> Kiwami 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 6 -> 0 (end of original saga, wrapping back around to prequel game. Ends the saga with a bang)
0-> Kiwami -> Kiwami 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 6 (Chronological order, which is what I did. Starts with a bang but tapers off, and nose dives on 3. Gets better as it gets closer to 6, though)
Kiwami -> Kiwami 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 ->0 -> 6 (what I wish I did, probably would have given 6 a lot more emotional weight)
and then there’s release order (ew): 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 0 -> Kiwami -> 6-> Kiwami 2
We live in the future so maybe don’t pick that one lol
Are the two DLCs not included and integrated into Mankind Divided? That’s a shame. The DLC for Human Revolution was seamless and maybe the best part of the game (excluding the “you lose all your gear and skills” gimmick that I’m quite fed up with). It’s a shame about the ending of MD though, I hear the game feels like basically 2/3 of a great game and then just ends in a cliffhanger, which hurts knowing it never got continued.
Sounds fine for Infinite. I loved Bioshock one, and I think it’s one of the best games of all time. Bioshock 2 is like an 8/10, it’s essentially just “more Bioshock” but with a worse story. I’d rather they try something different with Infinite than another runback.
Yeah I suspected as much for the old games. Kiwami -> Kiwami 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 0 -> 6 is what I was planning on doing, and so it seems I was on the right track. I have heard there is technically some extra content in Kiwami 1&2 you’d only appreciate if you’d already played some of the other games, but I’m not sure it’s worth hunting down and suffering through the original Yakuza 1&2 for those tidbits. Plus it seems awkward to fit in progression wise since you’re replaying the story of 1 and 2… Do you play 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 0 -> 6 -> Kiwami -> Kiwami 2 then? Or save 6 for last? And it seems like a lot of effort for marginal gains.
Are the two DLCs not included and integrated into Mankind Divided?
First one is: after spending a few months as a pre-order exclusive it was added in a free update.
Human Revolution’s DLC was also my favorite part of the game, although I felt that it hurt the pacing of the original game’s story. That said, it did set up plot points for Mankind Divided (and its missing second half / last third). Still hurting over the incomplete story…
Bioshock: Agreed. I think you’ll like it, then
Yakuza: I heard the same about Kiwami 1 and 2 having some extra content… although I really don’t remember what it is so that probably says how tiny/unimportant that extra content is lol.
As for the frankly mediocre Yakuza 3 and ok 4-5:
While Yakuza 3 is rough, it becomes a cakewalk once you learn how the AI works. It also has a nice change of scenery. 4 and 5’s stories are bloated, but you could always rush through them. Those last two games have combat almost as good as 0 and have some fun minigames.
Back in 2012, I only heard about Sleeping Dogs through word of mouth. Perhaps the marketing was really poor?
Gameplay-wise, I agree. It starts off pretty solid but once you get further, much of the open world feels samey and the missions start to include too much shooting, imo. That, and I didn’t really gel much with the melee combat after a couple of hours, but it seems like I’m in the minority on that. Finally, I feel like a lot of open world games at the time had a similar “formula”; they had many icon activities on the map, which were more-or-less duplicates of themselves.
I’ll focus on the positives, because there definitely were some: Absolutely agree on the graphics. There’s parts of the map that are pretty scenic (beach areas, city areas with more trees and vegetation), and night time looks amazing. Graphics wise it’s hard to believe it came out 13 years ago. I liked the music selection and I also thought the driving physics were pretty neat. Also, I liked that there were many things to buy, so cash isn’t just some point system.
Somewhat unrelated, but in your original post you mentioned losing immersion by the amount of killing you do in Sleeping Dogs. Have you played Metro Exodus? I feel like that game was smart about rewarding players who chose a non-lethal playstyle.
It’s funny you say the open world felt samey, because one of my main takeaways after playing this game was “man, CDPR really hit it out of the park with architecture and level design for Cyberpunk 2077”. Hong Kong looked great and crowded- particularly at night like you said - but it didn’t have nearly the same distinctly different districts with identifiable character as you’d find in Night City.
The melee combat only got somewhat interesting towards the end of the game when there were some enemies that could resist your counters, otherwise it was mostly a case of waiting for someone to flash red and pressing Y. There are some interesting ideas with the techniques you can unlock and the combos, but most of it felt like window dressing more than necessary tools. The only thing you need besides counters is the upgrade that lets you disarm enemies carrying melee weapons.
This is a great example of the game design sickness Ubisoft inflicted upon the world with the success of the Assassin’s Creed franchise. It’s released right in the window where that was all the rage, and this is absolutely peak Ubisoft Open World^TM. But that trend held for far too long - I’ve leveled that criticism against even titles as recent as Ghost of Tsushima.
The music selection was good, but I kind of wish the radio selection was deeper and not as wide. I would have preferred somewhat fewer channels but with a bigger selection of songs on each. I also missed more humour and talk show style radio. The driving did feel pretty good and the races were fun, although the AI was so atrocious at driving there was hardly a challenge. But throwing the cars into corners with handbrake turns and counter steering was enjoyable and I liked how the different cars had wildly different characteristics.
I still need to check out Cyberpunk 2077. I held off due to its launch but apparently the game is in a much stronger state now. Glad to hear that the level design is solid.
YES. I also dropped Ghost of Tsushima, Days Gone, Far Cry 4 for the same reason. Like the formula “works” for a mass audience, but man does it just not work for me anymore.
At this point, give me well thought-out level designs. If I want emergent gameplay and natural discovery, I will play any of the well-received immersive sims like Dishonored or Deus Ex.
Also, unrelated, but have you played Metro Exodus? The game is roughly 50% open world, 50% linear. The open world levels feel natural, and the linear levels are well thought out. I feel like the game was smart about rewarding players who chose a non-lethal playstyle as well. The consequences of being a murder machine are baked into the story and gameplay outcomes, in a way that makes sense.
How you will like it will depend on what you expected of it, I think. Some people wanted a completely free RPG where you could be whoever you wanted and play in an open world as dynamic as RDR2 - the game isn’t that. Much like the Witcher 3 you’re playing as a specific character and you can only choose small variations in how that character acts. But V will always be V. The open world is also much less dynamic than people wanted, but that can be said about Witcher 3 as well so I don’t know what people were expecting. CDPR aren’t Rockstar.
There are also some fundamental problems with the game that are too big to be fixable with patches. I’m talking stuff like reactivity to decisions, pacing for parts of the main quest and how well (or rather poorly) the story they wanted to tell meshes with an open world game.
That being said I think the game is now in the best state it can be for what it is, and that state is still a pretty damn good game. I really enjoyed the story, I thought it had some great characters, and the revamped post 2.0 gameplay and skill tree feel good. It has great writing and voice acting, Night City is beautifully designed and art direction in general is great. I found the game really immersive and enjoyable, and would definitely recommend it. Especially if you can get it on sale.
It also looks phenomenal and if you have a good PC that can play it maxed out (including Path Tracing) it’s one of the prettiest games out there. Look for the Ultra+ mod for further optimization and visual oomph.
I had to physically force myself to finish Ghost of Tsushima and during the last 25% or so of it I was actively resenting it. In my opinion, it is the single most overrated game of all time. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad game - I would give it a 7.5/10 - but the delta between what I think of it and the general opinion of it is the biggest. It is patently not the “game of a generation” or some such shit. It’s way too long, the writing and voice acting is way too dour, overly serious and monotone and the quest design is way too poor. Combine this with a standard Ubisoft Open World^TM and I don’t know what people are seeing. The combat is solid, but not enough to carry it for 60 hours. The game is stunning though and immaculately optimised, I’ll give it that. Ran like a dream on my fat old first gen PS4 (in stark contrast to the multiple minute loading screens of Witcher 3).
It’s on my extensive backlog. I played 2033 and Last Light last year. Loved the first game, the second not so much. I’ve heard only good things about Exodus though so I’m looking forward to it. It’s a candidate for my next game, but I’m not sure I’m feeling it quite yet. Otherwise I’ve got Deus Ex: Mankind Divided, BioShock: Infinite and Skald: Against the Black Priory in the immediate pipeline. Oh, and the entire Yakuza franchise, probably starting with Kiwami?
Cyberpunk: I see. I played the Witcher 3 (and all of its DLC) so my expectations seem to be inline with what you said. I’ll check it out when it’s on sale. I tend to take breaks from games that are thematically similar, so I’ll check it out after I’ve “recovered” from Mankind Divided (more on that later)
Ghost of Tsushima: Yeah I played parts of it during a Playstation Premium sale and felt no regrets dropping it. I had the impression that it would be ok, but definitely not worth 60 hours of my time.
Metro: Similar viewpoints on the Metro series. I’d say get to Exodus when you are ready. It was on my waitlist for about 2 years.
Mankind divided: It seems the consensus online is that Human Revolution is overall better than Mankind Divided, but Mankind Divided is better gameplay wise. Personally, I liked Mankind Divided more than Human Revolution, although the former has its fair share of flaws. I can go into them if you want, although personally I think its better to just play it and form your own thoughts on it. Personally, I made peace with the flaws and accept the game for what it is. (Also, its “A Criminal Past” DLC is amazing and highly replayable)
Bioshock infiinite: It’s been a few years since I played this, but from what I remember its a solid action shooter. It’s not so much an immersive sim like the previous entries. Go into it with the right expectations and it’s a fun time.
Yakuza: My special interest series, lmao. I have played most games. However, I have not played Infinite Wealth, nor the spinoff games (Man Who Erased His Name, Pirate Yakuza in hawaii, Samurai games, or zombie spinoff). I’ve also played the Judgement series, which feels like Yakuza meets Ace Attorney. As for which to start with… that’s tricky. I played the original Yakuza back in 2004 (with Mark Hamil’s joker voice acting for Majima), took a 15+ year hiatus from the series, returned to the series with 0, and then binged most of the mainline games during covid lmao.
I’ve read some things about Mankind Divided, mainly critiquing the first hour or so and the abrupt ending, including an unsatisfying ending. So if those are the flaws I’m braced for them. Otherwise I’ve heard pretty good things. It’s actually installed already and quite likely my next game, though I saw Skald is on sale now so it’s making a late charge.
Bioshock Infinite sounds like what I’d expected. But I wouldn’t call either Bioshock 1 or 2 an imsim? They’re just tight shooters with some occasionally great writing (mostly in the first one) and some stellar world building.
I could do with some advice about Yakuza though. I’ve heard three suggestions: start with 0, start with Kiwami or start with the original Yakuza (and play them in release order). It seems to me Kiwami is a solid middle ground compromise as a first game, but I am aware it will lead to a downgrade in quality between Kiwami 2 and Yakuza 3. On the other hand, starting with the original Yakuza and playing in release order is most “correct”, and probably the best experience if I do end up loving the series - but I’m worried the original Yakuza will feel old and clunky and put me off the series as a whole.
It seems like you’ve heard everything about Mankind Divided. The other thing is that the first two DLC should have been included in the game. The first one is forgettable, the second one is decent.
In hindsight, I think imsim is the wrong genre name for Bioshock 1 or 2. I wasn’t sure how to word it, but I guess I mean that you’ll definitely see a difference in pacing and overall gameplay compared to Infinite.
Yakuza: So while this is my favorite series, I don’t want to ignore its flaws. I tried replaying the PS2 games recently and they were way too clunky and miss a lot of quality of life features that the sequels / remakes have. Honestly, I would just skip the PS2 games and substitute them with Kiwami.
The original saga is every numbered game from 0 - > 6. The consensus (which I agree with) is that 0 is the strongest one in this saga. Also, ending the saga with 6 sets up 7 (Like a Dragon) pretty well. Also, Judgement takes place between 6 and 7, although this series doesn’t reference Yakuza that much (and vice versa)
There are a couple of orders that make sense
Kiwami -> Kiwami 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 6 -> 0 (end of original saga, wrapping back around to prequel game. Ends the saga with a bang)
0-> Kiwami -> Kiwami 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 6 (Chronological order, which is what I did. Starts with a bang but tapers off, and nose dives on 3. Gets better as it gets closer to 6, though)
Kiwami -> Kiwami 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 ->0 -> 6 (what I wish I did, probably would have given 6 a lot more emotional weight)
and then there’s release order (ew): 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 0 -> Kiwami -> 6-> Kiwami 2
We live in the future so maybe don’t pick that one lol
Are the two DLCs not included and integrated into Mankind Divided? That’s a shame. The DLC for Human Revolution was seamless and maybe the best part of the game (excluding the “you lose all your gear and skills” gimmick that I’m quite fed up with). It’s a shame about the ending of MD though, I hear the game feels like basically 2/3 of a great game and then just ends in a cliffhanger, which hurts knowing it never got continued.
Sounds fine for Infinite. I loved Bioshock one, and I think it’s one of the best games of all time. Bioshock 2 is like an 8/10, it’s essentially just “more Bioshock” but with a worse story. I’d rather they try something different with Infinite than another runback.
Yeah I suspected as much for the old games. Kiwami -> Kiwami 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 0 -> 6 is what I was planning on doing, and so it seems I was on the right track. I have heard there is technically some extra content in Kiwami 1&2 you’d only appreciate if you’d already played some of the other games, but I’m not sure it’s worth hunting down and suffering through the original Yakuza 1&2 for those tidbits. Plus it seems awkward to fit in progression wise since you’re replaying the story of 1 and 2… Do you play 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 0 -> 6 -> Kiwami -> Kiwami 2 then? Or save 6 for last? And it seems like a lot of effort for marginal gains.
First one is: after spending a few months as a pre-order exclusive it was added in a free update.
Human Revolution’s DLC was also my favorite part of the game, although I felt that it hurt the pacing of the original game’s story. That said, it did set up plot points for Mankind Divided (and its missing second half / last third). Still hurting over the incomplete story…
Bioshock: Agreed. I think you’ll like it, then
Yakuza: I heard the same about Kiwami 1 and 2 having some extra content… although I really don’t remember what it is so that probably says how tiny/unimportant that extra content is lol.
As for the frankly mediocre Yakuza 3 and ok 4-5:
While Yakuza 3 is rough, it becomes a cakewalk once you learn how the AI works. It also has a nice change of scenery. 4 and 5’s stories are bloated, but you could always rush through them. Those last two games have combat almost as good as 0 and have some fun minigames.