Fair enough. Then I don’t like the term “arm teachers”. I’m sure I’ve seen talk of mandating (or letting schools mandate) before, but it’s immaterial because I think my point still stands without it.
It’s a fair point, I have never seen a single proposal that works that way. It isn’t part of the job description and I don’t think anyone would expect it to be. Every single proposal and policy I’ve seen implemented simply have an option for teachers to pursue to be allowed to carry under various terms.
There are issues with the other points as well. A school classroom isn’t actually inherently riskier than say a store, in fact it’s easier to defend in a given active shooter scenario. Defenders have a huge tactical advantage over an attacker, the point isn’t to have a dozen armed teachers running around in the chaos trying to chase down the shooter. The same shelter in place/lockdown is still the best move. The difference is that if the shooter makes it into a room that happens to have an armed teacher, they are now challenged and very likely to be neutralized. The goal and training programs still have teachers lock the doors and hide the kids out of sight in a safe corner, the difference is the teacher then takes up a different point with a clear shot on the entrance so that if an attacker comes in they can be instantly engaged from cover. The biggest challenge here is figuring out the best location for the students and the defender, but this can all be sorted out long before an actual attack occurs, once an ideal location is chosen for each teacher all they need to do in the moment is follow the plan.
As far as preventing terrorist incidents, this is literally the point of terrorism. To find a soft target and create chaos and fear. If you harden the target and let it be known that it won’t be easy or successful to their goal, it is an extreme deterrent. There are numerous mass shooter manifestos that specifically state their targets were chosen based on being gun free. There are tons of other things that can and should be done to prevent them from happening at all, but in the moment during one that is actively being committed, the absolute best outcome is for them to face in place resistance as soon as possible.
I’m not sure I agree with that. Generally speaking, the biggest risk is a crowded room with out-of-control people. Considering many school shooters are former or current students as well, it’s a real hogan’s alley mistake waiting to happen with live people. There’s a reason that people trained to shoot in crowded areas are very highly trained on picking targets and temperament control so as not to make a tragic split-second decision. Police, in general, are trained NOT to shoot into crowded areas, though they sometimes do and sometimes tragedy ensues.
But I’m not sure we have to agree on this. My point was that *they are not apple-to-apple comparable scenarios. *I think I have shown this fairly well. You’re describing some very specific tactical training (that teachers may or may not be receiving) that clearly depict the differences. If I owned a small store in a small town where only one or two customers are in the store at a given time, it’s simply a different scenario even if you think it’s more dangerous. If I live alone, anyone forcing their way into my house at night is a definite risk. No false positives. That leaves out some legal complication (which I might actually agree with you on), but the point is depicting the differences.
As far as preventing terrorist incidents, this is literally the point of terrorism
So you do not believe the “terrorism” variable is different in any way between a school shooter and someone coming to murder you for a gay pride flag?
The issue with that point of view is that it’s based on a limited knowledge and understanding of a topic. It’s a fair hypothesis but the thing about general hypotheses is that they should be updated when challenged by a more in depth understanding of the topic. In real world scenarios when shit hits the fan it isn’t quite like in the Avengers when alien portals open over the street and people run in every direction. The basic shape and function of schools makes them highly compartmentalized. Short of being in a cafeteria, gym or assembly hall there really isn’t much room for people to be running in all directions. Even then, in both cafeterias and auditoriums the natural response to an event like a shooting is to drop lower for cover, unless you’re the shooter. Add in the fact that a single teacher shooting back at the primary person standing that has everyone moving away from is likely to end in a better outcome than not having a teacher there to do so and the tactical risk analysis tips heavily in favor of allowing properly vetted armed bystanders. In real world events armed bystanders are actually very effective with only a few cases of the attackers out gunning or police misidentifying the actual shooter.
While armed intervention is somewhat rare, it’s because the vast majority of non gang related, random public shootings specifically occur in gun free zones. Take an extremely rare statistical event and then filter out >90% of events where a legal armed intervention is even possible and the data pool is close, but not quite zero. In cases where an armed bystander is present and able to engage they are highly effective. I do not have links handy but last I saw it was greater than 90% of cases with armed intervention available they were able to neutralize or impede the attacker appreciably. Now with schools, like airlines, having unique challenges that make them sensitive, I am all for offering advanced training as part of the process for allowing faculty to carry. This training absolutely should include tactics to avoid the hypotheticals you are concerned with. That being said, a large portion of people that carry every day don’t just strap on a gun and go out into the world. We are the ones that do train and learn tactical scenarios and learn how to maximize defensive advantages. I don’t carry a gun because I’m scared of the world, I carry one because I want to be as prepared as I can be for any situation. It’s why I have a first aid kit, fire extinguisher, tire patch kit and jump start battery in my car as well. None of those things are useful without training and understanding of how they work. When it comes to guns I have had both formal and informal training in basic usage, function, repair and tactical employment. I have carried while around town in restaurants, bars, hospitals, amusement parks and movie theaters. I have also carried on airplanes and at airports and have specific training on how to defensively use a gun on an aircraft. I’m likely much more trained than the average, but I am not alone and the vast majority of my experience is purely voluntary and with the people I meet along the way I am by no means an isolated case. Armed teachers shouldn’t be the primary method of preventing school shootings, but they absolutely are the best option to stop them.
Terrorists are bullies that take it to truly evil levels. They prey on the weak to force their opinions on others. A school shooter and the asshole in this news article are both evil, it’s just a matter of how they chose to exert their evil on others. Who knows what his actual thoughts or motivations were, something tells me that the lack of any info on him from authorities means he doesn’t meet the cliche MAGA asshole they would love to pin it on so they’re just letting the shock of the crime run its course rather than diffuse what is a powerful political tool for furthering their own goals. Whatever his motivations or demographic were, he’s a monster that society failed to allow him to develop those views, as a last resort I just wish that for someone that evil there had been enough of a deterrent to prevent him from trying once he got the idea in his head.
You seem to be letting the topic drift from “whether these two things are different” to “I think teachers should be armed”. I’m not really here to discuss the latter topic. Everything you said here, whether I agree or disagree, reinforces the only point I’m trying to make - that the two scenarios are not apple-to-apple and should not be compared as such. You appear to agree with me, fully.
Tangentially, I find it interesting you think teachers should not need specialized training after you have now twice described very specific tactics you think they should employ. But as I say, I’m not really here to press my opinion on teachers being armed because I think it’s a nuanced and complicated issue. Also as YOU say, it is far more important to focus on steps that keep potential shooters from choosing to walk into a school with a gun in the first place.
Just out of curiosity what part of my slightly rambling response gave you the impression that I did not think they should get specialized training? I intended to state the exact opposite so I would genuinely like to know which part of my phrasing failed to convey my intent. I was merely explaining that real world results without training are highly successful in the limited scenarios where they have been able to play out, and with that as a basis proper training can mitigate or eliminate the unique risks associated with schools.
Anyway, sorry for the long rant. I genuinely believe that gun control is 100% based in ignorance and lies, with a small group deliberately lying to the public to create ignorance and generate support for their own goals. As such, whenever I find someone genuinely willing to read and discuss it I try to do what I can to show the other side of the argument. A specific act of targeted violence is not the same as a cable news shooter in a school, but there are more similarities than you would expect at face value. Both are committed by damaged people who society allowed to go without proper support and moral guidance. Both should be prevented by proper upbringing with human kindness as a core value and both can only be stopped in the moment after tragedy strikes with equal or greater force. The right to be armed with whatever may be used against you is only the final measure rather than the ideal way to prevent it.
Just out of curiosity what part of my slightly rambling response gave you the impression that I did not think they should get specialized training?
My misreading on the second paragraph, which is 100% on me. I thought you were just pointing out airlines as needing specialized training (implying that teachers did not). I went to quote it back to you and realized the mistake was mine.
I’m genuinely not sure how I feel about that. I tend to like reduced situational volatility, and I’m not quite sure how much training (for teachers AND for responding police) would make me consider armed teachers at a school-shooting to be an asset instead of a liability. It seems like it might be more than is reasonable to give the teachers. Weeks, months? Hogan’s Alley was notorious for a reason. Being able to differentiate between an innocent and an active shooter when startled at high stress is not easy. It requires enough training to change one’s subconscious. And then, yes, the odds of that training ever being used are very low. But I would be more comfortable with that kind of training than with no training, for sure.
I genuinely believe that gun control is 100% based in ignorance and lies, with a small group deliberately lying to the public to create ignorance and generate support for their own goals
I genuinely believe that gun bans are based on ignorance and lies, but gun control generally works in most countries, virtually all countries that use it. Gun control can (and should) be about minimizing risk with the least cost of freedom, as opposed to about fear and reactionary behavior. For guns in schools, there’s only a couple countries that actually allow armed teachers. In fact, the only other one I could find is Israel, which is debunked in a fact check. To me, that is a risk because, as much as you accused me of ignorance on the topic, I would dare suggest EVERYONE is ignorant on the topic since we don’t have enough background to quantify it.
Risk mitigation would be to have dedicated armed and trained security, like many public buildings have. But many schools already have that, anyway.
Fair enough. Then I don’t like the term “arm teachers”. I’m sure I’ve seen talk of mandating (or letting schools mandate) before, but it’s immaterial because I think my point still stands without it.
It’s a fair point, I have never seen a single proposal that works that way. It isn’t part of the job description and I don’t think anyone would expect it to be. Every single proposal and policy I’ve seen implemented simply have an option for teachers to pursue to be allowed to carry under various terms.
Agreed. If they really aren’t working that way, I leave out that point, but leave in my other 2 points.
There are issues with the other points as well. A school classroom isn’t actually inherently riskier than say a store, in fact it’s easier to defend in a given active shooter scenario. Defenders have a huge tactical advantage over an attacker, the point isn’t to have a dozen armed teachers running around in the chaos trying to chase down the shooter. The same shelter in place/lockdown is still the best move. The difference is that if the shooter makes it into a room that happens to have an armed teacher, they are now challenged and very likely to be neutralized. The goal and training programs still have teachers lock the doors and hide the kids out of sight in a safe corner, the difference is the teacher then takes up a different point with a clear shot on the entrance so that if an attacker comes in they can be instantly engaged from cover. The biggest challenge here is figuring out the best location for the students and the defender, but this can all be sorted out long before an actual attack occurs, once an ideal location is chosen for each teacher all they need to do in the moment is follow the plan.
As far as preventing terrorist incidents, this is literally the point of terrorism. To find a soft target and create chaos and fear. If you harden the target and let it be known that it won’t be easy or successful to their goal, it is an extreme deterrent. There are numerous mass shooter manifestos that specifically state their targets were chosen based on being gun free. There are tons of other things that can and should be done to prevent them from happening at all, but in the moment during one that is actively being committed, the absolute best outcome is for them to face in place resistance as soon as possible.
I’m not sure I agree with that. Generally speaking, the biggest risk is a crowded room with out-of-control people. Considering many school shooters are former or current students as well, it’s a real hogan’s alley mistake waiting to happen with live people. There’s a reason that people trained to shoot in crowded areas are very highly trained on picking targets and temperament control so as not to make a tragic split-second decision. Police, in general, are trained NOT to shoot into crowded areas, though they sometimes do and sometimes tragedy ensues.
But I’m not sure we have to agree on this. My point was that *they are not apple-to-apple comparable scenarios. *I think I have shown this fairly well. You’re describing some very specific tactical training (that teachers may or may not be receiving) that clearly depict the differences. If I owned a small store in a small town where only one or two customers are in the store at a given time, it’s simply a different scenario even if you think it’s more dangerous. If I live alone, anyone forcing their way into my house at night is a definite risk. No false positives. That leaves out some legal complication (which I might actually agree with you on), but the point is depicting the differences.
So you do not believe the “terrorism” variable is different in any way between a school shooter and someone coming to murder you for a gay pride flag?
The issue with that point of view is that it’s based on a limited knowledge and understanding of a topic. It’s a fair hypothesis but the thing about general hypotheses is that they should be updated when challenged by a more in depth understanding of the topic. In real world scenarios when shit hits the fan it isn’t quite like in the Avengers when alien portals open over the street and people run in every direction. The basic shape and function of schools makes them highly compartmentalized. Short of being in a cafeteria, gym or assembly hall there really isn’t much room for people to be running in all directions. Even then, in both cafeterias and auditoriums the natural response to an event like a shooting is to drop lower for cover, unless you’re the shooter. Add in the fact that a single teacher shooting back at the primary person standing that has everyone moving away from is likely to end in a better outcome than not having a teacher there to do so and the tactical risk analysis tips heavily in favor of allowing properly vetted armed bystanders. In real world events armed bystanders are actually very effective with only a few cases of the attackers out gunning or police misidentifying the actual shooter.
While armed intervention is somewhat rare, it’s because the vast majority of non gang related, random public shootings specifically occur in gun free zones. Take an extremely rare statistical event and then filter out >90% of events where a legal armed intervention is even possible and the data pool is close, but not quite zero. In cases where an armed bystander is present and able to engage they are highly effective. I do not have links handy but last I saw it was greater than 90% of cases with armed intervention available they were able to neutralize or impede the attacker appreciably. Now with schools, like airlines, having unique challenges that make them sensitive, I am all for offering advanced training as part of the process for allowing faculty to carry. This training absolutely should include tactics to avoid the hypotheticals you are concerned with. That being said, a large portion of people that carry every day don’t just strap on a gun and go out into the world. We are the ones that do train and learn tactical scenarios and learn how to maximize defensive advantages. I don’t carry a gun because I’m scared of the world, I carry one because I want to be as prepared as I can be for any situation. It’s why I have a first aid kit, fire extinguisher, tire patch kit and jump start battery in my car as well. None of those things are useful without training and understanding of how they work. When it comes to guns I have had both formal and informal training in basic usage, function, repair and tactical employment. I have carried while around town in restaurants, bars, hospitals, amusement parks and movie theaters. I have also carried on airplanes and at airports and have specific training on how to defensively use a gun on an aircraft. I’m likely much more trained than the average, but I am not alone and the vast majority of my experience is purely voluntary and with the people I meet along the way I am by no means an isolated case. Armed teachers shouldn’t be the primary method of preventing school shootings, but they absolutely are the best option to stop them.
Terrorists are bullies that take it to truly evil levels. They prey on the weak to force their opinions on others. A school shooter and the asshole in this news article are both evil, it’s just a matter of how they chose to exert their evil on others. Who knows what his actual thoughts or motivations were, something tells me that the lack of any info on him from authorities means he doesn’t meet the cliche MAGA asshole they would love to pin it on so they’re just letting the shock of the crime run its course rather than diffuse what is a powerful political tool for furthering their own goals. Whatever his motivations or demographic were, he’s a monster that society failed to allow him to develop those views, as a last resort I just wish that for someone that evil there had been enough of a deterrent to prevent him from trying once he got the idea in his head.
You seem to be letting the topic drift from “whether these two things are different” to “I think teachers should be armed”. I’m not really here to discuss the latter topic. Everything you said here, whether I agree or disagree, reinforces the only point I’m trying to make - that the two scenarios are not apple-to-apple and should not be compared as such. You appear to agree with me, fully.
Tangentially, I find it interesting you think teachers should not need specialized training after you have now twice described very specific tactics you think they should employ. But as I say, I’m not really here to press my opinion on teachers being armed because I think it’s a nuanced and complicated issue. Also as YOU say, it is far more important to focus on steps that keep potential shooters from choosing to walk into a school with a gun in the first place.
Just out of curiosity what part of my slightly rambling response gave you the impression that I did not think they should get specialized training? I intended to state the exact opposite so I would genuinely like to know which part of my phrasing failed to convey my intent. I was merely explaining that real world results without training are highly successful in the limited scenarios where they have been able to play out, and with that as a basis proper training can mitigate or eliminate the unique risks associated with schools.
Anyway, sorry for the long rant. I genuinely believe that gun control is 100% based in ignorance and lies, with a small group deliberately lying to the public to create ignorance and generate support for their own goals. As such, whenever I find someone genuinely willing to read and discuss it I try to do what I can to show the other side of the argument. A specific act of targeted violence is not the same as a cable news shooter in a school, but there are more similarities than you would expect at face value. Both are committed by damaged people who society allowed to go without proper support and moral guidance. Both should be prevented by proper upbringing with human kindness as a core value and both can only be stopped in the moment after tragedy strikes with equal or greater force. The right to be armed with whatever may be used against you is only the final measure rather than the ideal way to prevent it.
My misreading on the second paragraph, which is 100% on me. I thought you were just pointing out airlines as needing specialized training (implying that teachers did not). I went to quote it back to you and realized the mistake was mine.
I’m genuinely not sure how I feel about that. I tend to like reduced situational volatility, and I’m not quite sure how much training (for teachers AND for responding police) would make me consider armed teachers at a school-shooting to be an asset instead of a liability. It seems like it might be more than is reasonable to give the teachers. Weeks, months? Hogan’s Alley was notorious for a reason. Being able to differentiate between an innocent and an active shooter when startled at high stress is not easy. It requires enough training to change one’s subconscious. And then, yes, the odds of that training ever being used are very low. But I would be more comfortable with that kind of training than with no training, for sure.
I genuinely believe that gun bans are based on ignorance and lies, but gun control generally works in most countries, virtually all countries that use it. Gun control can (and should) be about minimizing risk with the least cost of freedom, as opposed to about fear and reactionary behavior. For guns in schools, there’s only a couple countries that actually allow armed teachers. In fact, the only other one I could find is Israel, which is debunked in a fact check. To me, that is a risk because, as much as you accused me of ignorance on the topic, I would dare suggest EVERYONE is ignorant on the topic since we don’t have enough background to quantify it.
Risk mitigation would be to have dedicated armed and trained security, like many public buildings have. But many schools already have that, anyway.