Defending Russian speakers and Crimeans from Ukrainian nazis is a pretty good justification, hence the reason the majority of Ukrainian russian speakers in Donbass and Luhansk back the Russians
But basic facts are inconvenient for you scumbag libs
If Texas “elected” (America has no democracy) Democrats and then the Democrats were ousted by Nazi militias before the next election and replaced with Republicans then the Nazi militias started to strike southern majority Mexican neighborhoods with artillery and banned the Spanish language and the state and federal government allowed it, would you pick up a rifle to stop the Mexican army from coming across the border to protect the American minorities begging Mexico for help?
Your analogy makes no sense, imagine if Texas was taken over by nazis and it triggered a civil war and the Texans resisting the nazis (majority of whom are spanish speakers of Mexican heritage) implored Mexico to intervene, that would be more accurate
What the fuck kind of whack ass question is this? How much paint did you huff beforehand? No one country has a moral implication to do anything you fucking moron. Capitalist countries act based on their material needs and circumstances, not some vague notion of morality.
The only moral justification I can think of would be that Russia must be a great power, so it’s morally good for it to fund forcefully expand it’s sphere of influence.
The primary reason for the invasion was NATO encroachmemt and threats of Ukraine joining NATO. This prompted an invasion because the Russian Federadtion has border disputes with Ukraine, which it would have no recourse to address if Ukraine joined NATO as then conflict would or at least very seriously could lead to nuclear conflict. Essentially, they’re settling long standing border disputes that have been ongoing, and which the US/NATO have been heavily involved in creating conflict.
The US has been setting up Ukraine a proxy battlefield in its larger conflict against the Russian Federation. The US does not have access to extract value from Russuan territory like it did before Putin and a coalition of national bourgeois allies kicked out the US collaborating bourgois of the Yelstin coalition. This is the source of conflict between the US and the Russian Federation. The US as the global imperial hegemon presides over a system of extraction and exploitation of the imperial periphery. US state enemies are all nations that have refused to submit to this system.
I’m not claiming any moral justification, I’m not claiming support of the action. But that’s the rationale that led the Russian Federation to invade.
I am a communist. I do not support the capitalist and socially reactionary government of the Russian Federation. But i do have a degree of critical support for the Russian Federations struggle against US hegemony. This statement applies to other nations that have non socislist governments but struggle against US hegemony and therefore often trade or support socialist states, such as Iran.
I don’t support the governments of the US any NATO country, Ukraine, or the Russian Federation. I support the international working class of all these countries which did not start nor deserve this war, or any other perpetrated by the ruling classes. I want this war to end, and people to stop dying.
The main reason that this war continues is the insistence of the US whose “aid” is prolonging the war and killing more Ukrainians who do not need to be dying. The US has been playing out its battle with Russia, and has been discplining its NATO “allies” who were becoming energy independent from the US by trading with Russia.
I oppose the US and its aims primarily because it is the global imperialist hegemon. As a communist i oppose this global system of capital and any defeats to this system are of benefit to humanity
I’m a Marxist. My perspective on history, my theory of change, beliefs about capitalism and socialism, do not require morality.
The belief in the role the proletariat will play in transforming society is not based on moral superiority. It is based on the existence of class conflict and that they are the class with revolutionary potentional.
Capitalism is not a stable or static system, and it cannot sustain itself forever because its existence demands perpetual growth. As it reaches this endpoint, the contridictions in this system heighten, as will the conflict between the proletariat and the bourgeois. The proletariat will prevail, not for any moral reason, but because they are the class on which the entire system relies.
As a human being i feel its a vastly morally superior project. But my feeling is completely immaterial, as is whatever judgment you place on my opinion
So would actions by nations that move towards that good also be good?
Also, what do you mean by communism? Does it need to be democratic communism, or is USSR authoritarianism fine, or China’s communism in name only? What makes communism good?
I think it’s a mistake to try to make this a moral argument, it’s not one the West can win because they manifestly do not approach foreign policy as primarily moral actors.
War is bad, workers shouldn’t die for bourgeois national rulers to protect lines on maps. But foreign policy is premised on the idea that national governments act in ways that are predictable and changeable. The war in Ukraine was avoidable, the reasons it is happening have been building for decades and deescalation was and remains an option on the table. US policy towards Russia could have prevented this, US leaders chose to play chicken with another country’s citizens for its own reasons. And that is, in my opinion, bad.
So the US should have appeased Russia? Let Ukraine be sliced up?
Governments don’t think morally, but that doesn’t mean we can’t. Public opinion is an important consideration in democracies. So if the public thinks a war is immoral, the government needs to take that into account.
Slicing up Ukraine wasn’t what Russia asked for, it’s a step they took in response to escalating pressure when non-alignment/security guarantees/ literally any negotiation at all proved to be impossible to achieve diplomatically. History didn’t start in 2022. The US could and should have kept its commitments or taken one of the multiple offers to negotiate a deescalation between 1991 and 2022. We don’t have to act as if the choice was a binary between appeasement and war, there were many many options that could have been pursued over the course of decades. The US didn’t have to continue to expand NATO, they could have let Russia join when they asked, they had options.
The people who lived in Ukraine have had a variety of opinions about that question actually, it’s part of the context of the conflict as I’m sure you know. Obviously they would have rather the USSR continued to exist as they made overwhelmingly clear when the question was put to them in a referendum, but that was not to be. But public opinion varies from place to place and over time in Ukraine. The entire reason the eastern section of Ukraine is the subject of conflict now is that Russia could plausibly say that there were Russian speakers and sympathizers who made up a significant portion of the population there, and the separatist regions separated over the question of aligning with the west and against Russia. So it’s not a simple ‘they did’ or ‘they didn’t’ want to align with one side or another, they were caught in the middle and weren’t sure what they wanted for a significant part of this.
But to answer your question directly, yes, if US foreign policy cared about the lives of people in Ukraine they should have made it clear they would not admit Ukraine into NATO. A sane foreign policy analyst would have been able to see that was a provocation and reasoned that doing so put the lives of Ukrainians at risk, because it would risk escalation.
But you missed something I said before, I think: If the US was interested in peace and in deescalation they could have admitted Russia into NATO when they asked to join after the USSR folded. It wasn’t even just Putin, Gorbachev and Yeltsin both made it clear that they were interested, hell even Molotov asked in the 50s. Then they could have had their cake and eaten it too, Russia’s security concerns could have been totally assuaged if it was made clear to them that the alliance didn’t still exist specifically to posture against them.
I guess it’s a chicken and egg with Russia militarizing and nato, but it seems awfully trusting to dismantle the nato security apparatus against Russia in exchange for a pinky promise of peace.
But you have to see, then, that the US wasn’t interested in deescalation. Peaceful options abounded, they won the cold war, their defeated enemy was literally asking to be admitted into an alliance and move forward as collaborators and they didn’t take the offer.
They said they would stop expanding NATO towards Russia and then did so anyway.
There’s only one realistic interpretation of that approach if you are Russia. You’d need to respond because the enemy you just lost to is making it obvious they aren’t finished with you yet.
So then we’re back full circle, where I say it’s obviously not a moral question because these are states making calculations about their interests, and that history didn’t start in 2022 and that deescalation was an option before this happened. Escalating was a policy decision that the US made. That’s not Russian apologia, that’s the history and context we went over in a good faith dialogue with each other. Ukraine is suffering because of US policy decisions. This doesn’t justify an invasion, it doesn’t make Putin a good guy, but the conflict was avoidable and the US decided to risk it.
If you recall, this entire chain is challenging the idea that the war is because of ‘Russian aggression.’ Would it be fair to say we have demonstrated that it’s more nuanced than that?
I guess it’s a chicken and egg with Russia militarizing and nato
Not a “chicken and egg problem” at all. NATO was created in 1949. Warsaw pact was created in 1955. USSR tried to join NATO in 1954. USSR made their own military pact only after getting rejected NATO membership, and seeing that West Germany was allowed in only 10 years after the holocaust. If NATO was willing to let “former” nazis like Adolf Heusinger into positions of power within NATO, while rejecting the USSR’s overtures at joining, then it was obvious that NATO all along was not really interested in allowing socialist countries into collective security. Because NATO was always about bourgeois security against socialism, which the USSR was the face of.
Nuclear escalation wasn’t a “chicken and egg problem” either. USA developed nuclear weapons first.
I like how you speak for Ukrainians on this matter. Ukraine as a whole did not want to “move more westward.” There were strong separatists movements in the Russian-speaking parts of the country for many reasons (some obvious, some not). In fact, it was these separatist regions that voted heavily for Zelensky, and saw him as a peaceful alternative to Poroshenko (the US-backed right wing leader who took power after Euromaidan oversaw the beginning of the civil war in Ukraine). Which regions want to move westward? The westmost regions. Mostly Lviv. The part of Ukraine that was historically part of Poland, and has a lot of neo nazis and monuments to ultranationalists and WW2 nazi collaborators like Yaroslav Stetsko and Stepan Bandera. That’s the most conservative and fascist leaning part of the country, and it’s the part of the country that historically has received the most political support from US/NATO/EU, and of course, before that, Nazi Germany. The fascist territorial defense units like Azov come from there. The fascist gangs like C14 come from there. The anti-LGBT, antisemitic and anti-Muslim and anti-Roma sentiment largely (but not entirely) come from there. The discrimination against Russian-speaking Ukrainians come from there. This is the part of the country that most strongly resisted Zelensky’s attempts at de-escalation, and they’re also the part of the country most allied with the west. And they’re the most destabilized and reactionary and capitalist and fascistic part of the country, that has been egging on NATO membership. They even contributed troops and mercenaries to the US-led NATO coalition that invaded Iraq.
Sure. Let’s talk Russia first. Does Russia have a moral obligation to be a great power?
what kind of baby-brained question is this
utter lib shit
What moral justification does Russia have to invade?
:galaxy-brain:
Wow! That’s a great justification!
Defending Russian speakers and Crimeans from Ukrainian nazis is a pretty good justification, hence the reason the majority of Ukrainian russian speakers in Donbass and Luhansk back the Russians
But basic facts are inconvenient for you scumbag libs
I’m sure there are some Nazi crazies in Texas. Would Spain be right to step in and annex part of Texas to protect them?
If Texas “elected” (America has no democracy) Democrats and then the Democrats were ousted by Nazi militias before the next election and replaced with Republicans then the Nazi militias started to strike southern majority Mexican neighborhoods with artillery and banned the Spanish language and the state and federal government allowed it, would you pick up a rifle to stop the Mexican army from coming across the border to protect the American minorities begging Mexico for help?
Your analogy makes no sense, imagine if Texas was taken over by nazis and it triggered a civil war and the Texans resisting the nazis (majority of whom are spanish speakers of Mexican heritage) implored Mexico to intervene, that would be more accurate
To kill the Nazis?
God willing.
Also, which polls are you referring to? Is that the election results from way back when? Or do you have a newer source?
Moral obligation? WTF?
Countries aren’t just one dude being moral or not lol
What the fuck kind of whack ass question is this? How much paint did you huff beforehand? No one country has a moral implication to do anything you fucking moron. Capitalist countries act based on their material needs and circumstances, not some vague notion of morality.
The only moral justification I can think of would be that Russia must be a great power, so it’s morally good for it to fund forcefully expand it’s sphere of influence.
What moral justification does Russia have for invading Ukraine?
The primary reason for the invasion was NATO encroachmemt and threats of Ukraine joining NATO. This prompted an invasion because the Russian Federadtion has border disputes with Ukraine, which it would have no recourse to address if Ukraine joined NATO as then conflict would or at least very seriously could lead to nuclear conflict. Essentially, they’re settling long standing border disputes that have been ongoing, and which the US/NATO have been heavily involved in creating conflict.
The US has been setting up Ukraine a proxy battlefield in its larger conflict against the Russian Federation. The US does not have access to extract value from Russuan territory like it did before Putin and a coalition of national bourgeois allies kicked out the US collaborating bourgois of the Yelstin coalition. This is the source of conflict between the US and the Russian Federation. The US as the global imperial hegemon presides over a system of extraction and exploitation of the imperial periphery. US state enemies are all nations that have refused to submit to this system.
I’m not claiming any moral justification, I’m not claiming support of the action. But that’s the rationale that led the Russian Federation to invade.
I am a communist. I do not support the capitalist and socially reactionary government of the Russian Federation. But i do have a degree of critical support for the Russian Federations struggle against US hegemony. This statement applies to other nations that have non socislist governments but struggle against US hegemony and therefore often trade or support socialist states, such as Iran.
I don’t support the governments of the US any NATO country, Ukraine, or the Russian Federation. I support the international working class of all these countries which did not start nor deserve this war, or any other perpetrated by the ruling classes. I want this war to end, and people to stop dying.
The main reason that this war continues is the insistence of the US whose “aid” is prolonging the war and killing more Ukrainians who do not need to be dying. The US has been playing out its battle with Russia, and has been discplining its NATO “allies” who were becoming energy independent from the US by trading with Russia.
I oppose the US and its aims primarily because it is the global imperialist hegemon. As a communist i oppose this global system of capital and any defeats to this system are of benefit to humanity
Is communism morally good?
Yes. Now here’s a complete post debunking “China’s genocide”: https://xinjiangahr.carrd.co/
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/china-xinjiang-uyghurs-muslims-repression-genocide-human-rights
I’m a Marxist. My perspective on history, my theory of change, beliefs about capitalism and socialism, do not require morality.
The belief in the role the proletariat will play in transforming society is not based on moral superiority. It is based on the existence of class conflict and that they are the class with revolutionary potentional.
Capitalism is not a stable or static system, and it cannot sustain itself forever because its existence demands perpetual growth. As it reaches this endpoint, the contridictions in this system heighten, as will the conflict between the proletariat and the bourgeois. The proletariat will prevail, not for any moral reason, but because they are the class on which the entire system relies.
As a human being i feel its a vastly morally superior project. But my feeling is completely immaterial, as is whatever judgment you place on my opinion
So why work for communism if it’s inevitable?
yes
So would actions by nations that move towards that good also be good?
Also, what do you mean by communism? Does it need to be democratic communism, or is USSR authoritarianism fine, or China’s communism in name only? What makes communism good?
I think it’s a mistake to try to make this a moral argument, it’s not one the West can win because they manifestly do not approach foreign policy as primarily moral actors.
War is bad, workers shouldn’t die for bourgeois national rulers to protect lines on maps. But foreign policy is premised on the idea that national governments act in ways that are predictable and changeable. The war in Ukraine was avoidable, the reasons it is happening have been building for decades and deescalation was and remains an option on the table. US policy towards Russia could have prevented this, US leaders chose to play chicken with another country’s citizens for its own reasons. And that is, in my opinion, bad.
So the US should have appeased Russia? Let Ukraine be sliced up?
Governments don’t think morally, but that doesn’t mean we can’t. Public opinion is an important consideration in democracies. So if the public thinks a war is immoral, the government needs to take that into account.
Slicing up Ukraine wasn’t what Russia asked for, it’s a step they took in response to escalating pressure when non-alignment/security guarantees/ literally any negotiation at all proved to be impossible to achieve diplomatically. History didn’t start in 2022. The US could and should have kept its commitments or taken one of the multiple offers to negotiate a deescalation between 1991 and 2022. We don’t have to act as if the choice was a binary between appeasement and war, there were many many options that could have been pursued over the course of decades. The US didn’t have to continue to expand NATO, they could have let Russia join when they asked, they had options.
Does Ukraine’s opinion matter in all this? Ukraine has wanted to move more westward. Should the US have prevented that for Russia?
The people who lived in Ukraine have had a variety of opinions about that question actually, it’s part of the context of the conflict as I’m sure you know. Obviously they would have rather the USSR continued to exist as they made overwhelmingly clear when the question was put to them in a referendum, but that was not to be. But public opinion varies from place to place and over time in Ukraine. The entire reason the eastern section of Ukraine is the subject of conflict now is that Russia could plausibly say that there were Russian speakers and sympathizers who made up a significant portion of the population there, and the separatist regions separated over the question of aligning with the west and against Russia. So it’s not a simple ‘they did’ or ‘they didn’t’ want to align with one side or another, they were caught in the middle and weren’t sure what they wanted for a significant part of this.
But to answer your question directly, yes, if US foreign policy cared about the lives of people in Ukraine they should have made it clear they would not admit Ukraine into NATO. A sane foreign policy analyst would have been able to see that was a provocation and reasoned that doing so put the lives of Ukrainians at risk, because it would risk escalation.
But you missed something I said before, I think: If the US was interested in peace and in deescalation they could have admitted Russia into NATO when they asked to join after the USSR folded. It wasn’t even just Putin, Gorbachev and Yeltsin both made it clear that they were interested, hell even Molotov asked in the 50s. Then they could have had their cake and eaten it too, Russia’s security concerns could have been totally assuaged if it was made clear to them that the alliance didn’t still exist specifically to posture against them.
I guess it’s a chicken and egg with Russia militarizing and nato, but it seems awfully trusting to dismantle the nato security apparatus against Russia in exchange for a pinky promise of peace.
But you have to see, then, that the US wasn’t interested in deescalation. Peaceful options abounded, they won the cold war, their defeated enemy was literally asking to be admitted into an alliance and move forward as collaborators and they didn’t take the offer.
They said they would stop expanding NATO towards Russia and then did so anyway.
There’s only one realistic interpretation of that approach if you are Russia. You’d need to respond because the enemy you just lost to is making it obvious they aren’t finished with you yet.
So then we’re back full circle, where I say it’s obviously not a moral question because these are states making calculations about their interests, and that history didn’t start in 2022 and that deescalation was an option before this happened. Escalating was a policy decision that the US made. That’s not Russian apologia, that’s the history and context we went over in a good faith dialogue with each other. Ukraine is suffering because of US policy decisions. This doesn’t justify an invasion, it doesn’t make Putin a good guy, but the conflict was avoidable and the US decided to risk it.
If you recall, this entire chain is challenging the idea that the war is because of ‘Russian aggression.’ Would it be fair to say we have demonstrated that it’s more nuanced than that?
NATO literally came first though lol
Not a “chicken and egg problem” at all. NATO was created in 1949. Warsaw pact was created in 1955. USSR tried to join NATO in 1954. USSR made their own military pact only after getting rejected NATO membership, and seeing that West Germany was allowed in only 10 years after the holocaust. If NATO was willing to let “former” nazis like Adolf Heusinger into positions of power within NATO, while rejecting the USSR’s overtures at joining, then it was obvious that NATO all along was not really interested in allowing socialist countries into collective security. Because NATO was always about bourgeois security against socialism, which the USSR was the face of.
Nuclear escalation wasn’t a “chicken and egg problem” either. USA developed nuclear weapons first.
I like how you speak for Ukrainians on this matter. Ukraine as a whole did not want to “move more westward.” There were strong separatists movements in the Russian-speaking parts of the country for many reasons (some obvious, some not). In fact, it was these separatist regions that voted heavily for Zelensky, and saw him as a peaceful alternative to Poroshenko (the US-backed right wing leader who took power after Euromaidan oversaw the beginning of the civil war in Ukraine). Which regions want to move westward? The westmost regions. Mostly Lviv. The part of Ukraine that was historically part of Poland, and has a lot of neo nazis and monuments to ultranationalists and WW2 nazi collaborators like Yaroslav Stetsko and Stepan Bandera. That’s the most conservative and fascist leaning part of the country, and it’s the part of the country that historically has received the most political support from US/NATO/EU, and of course, before that, Nazi Germany. The fascist territorial defense units like Azov come from there. The fascist gangs like C14 come from there. The anti-LGBT, antisemitic and anti-Muslim and anti-Roma sentiment largely (but not entirely) come from there. The discrimination against Russian-speaking Ukrainians come from there. This is the part of the country that most strongly resisted Zelensky’s attempts at de-escalation, and they’re also the part of the country most allied with the west. And they’re the most destabilized and reactionary and capitalist and fascistic part of the country, that has been egging on NATO membership. They even contributed troops and mercenaries to the US-led NATO coalition that invaded Iraq.