The thing to get is that there was no massacre on the square, and in fact there’s no verifiable evidence that anybody died there at all that day. Many people did die elsewhere, in street clashes with soldiers, after demonstrators killed and burned a few of them.
I would like to note also that bringing up events like Tiananmen Square, especially heavily propagandized and warped versions of them, without an understanding of the complex political context which led up to them, is not a gotcha, it’s just ignorant. Not saying you’re doing that or that you would do that, but it’s something others do frequently when they invoke it round here.
Firstly, we insist on content warnings being applied to violent content of that sort.
Second, I’m guessing you didn’t bother to translate any of this or investigate the sources cited - or lack thereof, since most of these images lack citation or provenance. The one source I was able to follow back was an interview of the man who lost his legs, conducted by right wing rag the Epoch Times and signal boosted by noted CIA cutout Radio Free Asia. Most everything else in there is unsourced, and many of the captions just outright lie about what’s being depicted, such as the one claiming the crushed red motorcycle is actually a guy run over on his bike.
Important to note also, none of these pictures are claimed to have been taken in the square itself. That violence occurred elsewhere is not in doubt; I never claimed there wasn’t violence, and the Chinese government themselves acknowledge it. What often gets left out is that the student demonstrators initiated it, and even western journalists working with eyewitness testimony concede that the PLA operated with remarkable restraint until things boiled over.
Third, and this is a comparatively minor point, the site you link to is a noted right-leaning anti-communist news organization which I suspect has ties to RFA. Even if that weren’t the case, it doesn’t seem at all trustworthy, given its clear bias against the Chinese government.
Edit: Upon further investigation, I found that Fang Zheng, the man who claims his legs were crushed by a tank in an unprovoked attack by the PLA, is himself not a very trustworthy source. The one person who he identified as being able to corroborate his claims, declined to do so, saying that she didn’t remember being with him at all on the day that violence broke out. Also potentially significant, he’s a founder of the Chinese Democracy Education Foundation, a California-based nonprofit opposed to the Chinese government. The organization has worked with RFA, and Fang Zheng himself has attended Falun Gong rallies and apparently shares their insane organ harvesting conspiracy theories.
With no actual evidence, it just seems like China’s word against the US’s. Neither are sources I trust, and both have motives to lie. I’m just going to assume nothing.
I said there was no evidence that a massacre took place in Tiananmen Square. What actually took place there is well evidenced by eyewitness testimony, a fair bit of which is contained in the two sources I linked.
Edit: I also take issue with the assertion that both the US and China are equally untrustworthy, particularly when the Chinese government freely admits that violent clashes between civilians and PLA personnel took place that day, something they would certainly have incentive to lie about if they were as untrustworthy as all that.
I recall seeing eyewitness testimony supporting both sides. Although, its possible the testimonies I saw were about the clashes that China admits to, and were simply framed as being about a massacre. They didn’t seem very specific or definitive.
Even though the Chinese government admits to those violent clashes, its still very plausible they would lie about a massacre. Its much easier to justify that than it would be an actual massacre, especially when the civilians act violently. Its also possible that admitting some aspect of it would benefit them more than complete denial.
You’d have a point there, if there wasn’t ample photographic evidence which also suggests that no concerted massacre took place, in the square or elsewhere. All available photographic evidence that I’ve seen supports the Chinese government’s version of events: scattered street clashes which unfortunately featured some quite heavy duty violence, but no mass formation of tanks coming in and deliberately schwacking everybody in sight.
You make convincing arguments, and I’m sure you are correct to some degree. I do not believe that the dramatized events suggested by the west are accurate. But, I still think it was a disgusting waste of life that could potentially be described as a massacre.
If you want to find it more, I often recommend the documentary “the gate of heavenly Peace” which you can find on YouTube. If you want to understand a bit of it’s perspective before watching check the reception/controversy section on its Wikipedia page
It wasn’t nice, to be sure. The workers’ protests which happened concurrently with the events of Tiananmen Square were reportedly the source of much of the violence, and it got properly nasty at times. The two events are often conflated though, and I felt it important to draw that distinction. Anyhow, I appreciate your open-mindedness.
Thanks for the thoughtful discussion and I’ll be reading more. I wanted to say I appreciate your detailed reply to my link of violent pictures that was taken down earlier. I was genuinely curious how others viewed that evidence. I can still read your comment in my inbox and will investigate further.
Reactions like yours are why I still bother. All I ever want is for people to look at popular historical and political narratives critically. I apologize if I came off as hostile at all, we get a lot of calumny coming our way, as you might imagine.
There is photographic evidence of what happened at the tiananmen massacre but when I posted it, it was immediately removed. It is well known that the Chinese censor their internet, so comments like this make me think that hexbear is participating in that censorship.
Oh, come off it. Your comment was removed because there was no content warning for violent images, which you were told and which is stated in the modlog.
Here, I’ll post your link with a CW and you can watch it stay up.
We don’t want this to be a space where people could randomly stumble across images of graphic violence they’re not prepared for. You’re not being censored by the CPC, dumbass.
Honestly this is a good default stance, I respect that.
Without a complex and nuanced model of the world, it’s incredibly difficult and exhausting to parse through layers of propaganda and ideology to figure out what actually happened (in any historical context, not just this).
If you’re interested in developing your understanding some more, learning about the existence/possibility of color revolutions helped fill in a lot of gaps for me. Broadly speaking they’re when a foreign actor either foments or co-opts social unrest, which it uses to destabilize and eventually overthrow a government that doesn’t align with the foreign actor’s interests. The Jakarta Method is a great read for learning about this.
https://www.liberationnews.org/tiananmen-the-massacre-that-wasnt-2/
Edit: the other source I was looking for
https://archives.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_myth_of_tiananmen.php
The thing to get is that there was no massacre on the square, and in fact there’s no verifiable evidence that anybody died there at all that day. Many people did die elsewhere, in street clashes with soldiers, after demonstrators killed and burned a few of them.
I would like to note also that bringing up events like Tiananmen Square, especially heavily propagandized and warped versions of them, without an understanding of the complex political context which led up to them, is not a gotcha, it’s just ignorant. Not saying you’re doing that or that you would do that, but it’s something others do frequently when they invoke it round here.
US Military Pysops Division literally bragged about how successful they were with Tiananmen in this recruitment video
https://youtu.be/VA4e0NqyYMw
Ah, I remember that. Almost feels like the cocky bastards are mocking us at this point.
What about the pictures of the massacre like these?
https://www.aboluowang.com/2008/0529/89034_3.html
Firstly, we insist on content warnings being applied to violent content of that sort.
Second, I’m guessing you didn’t bother to translate any of this or investigate the sources cited - or lack thereof, since most of these images lack citation or provenance. The one source I was able to follow back was an interview of the man who lost his legs, conducted by right wing rag the Epoch Times and signal boosted by noted CIA cutout Radio Free Asia. Most everything else in there is unsourced, and many of the captions just outright lie about what’s being depicted, such as the one claiming the crushed red motorcycle is actually a guy run over on his bike.
Important to note also, none of these pictures are claimed to have been taken in the square itself. That violence occurred elsewhere is not in doubt; I never claimed there wasn’t violence, and the Chinese government themselves acknowledge it. What often gets left out is that the student demonstrators initiated it, and even western journalists working with eyewitness testimony concede that the PLA operated with remarkable restraint until things boiled over.
Third, and this is a comparatively minor point, the site you link to is a noted right-leaning anti-communist news organization which I suspect has ties to RFA. Even if that weren’t the case, it doesn’t seem at all trustworthy, given its clear bias against the Chinese government.
Edit: Upon further investigation, I found that Fang Zheng, the man who claims his legs were crushed by a tank in an unprovoked attack by the PLA, is himself not a very trustworthy source. The one person who he identified as being able to corroborate his claims, declined to do so, saying that she didn’t remember being with him at all on the day that violence broke out. Also potentially significant, he’s a founder of the Chinese Democracy Education Foundation, a California-based nonprofit opposed to the Chinese government. The organization has worked with RFA, and Fang Zheng himself has attended Falun Gong rallies and apparently shares their insane organ harvesting conspiracy theories.
Is this really what you’re giving us?
With no actual evidence, it just seems like China’s word against the US’s. Neither are sources I trust, and both have motives to lie. I’m just going to assume nothing.
Can you possibly explain why the western diplomats stationed there told their home countries nothing happened in diplomatic cables?
Why would they do that if it was real?
I said there was no evidence that a massacre took place in Tiananmen Square. What actually took place there is well evidenced by eyewitness testimony, a fair bit of which is contained in the two sources I linked.
Edit: I also take issue with the assertion that both the US and China are equally untrustworthy, particularly when the Chinese government freely admits that violent clashes between civilians and PLA personnel took place that day, something they would certainly have incentive to lie about if they were as untrustworthy as all that.
I recall seeing eyewitness testimony supporting both sides. Although, its possible the testimonies I saw were about the clashes that China admits to, and were simply framed as being about a massacre. They didn’t seem very specific or definitive.
Even though the Chinese government admits to those violent clashes, its still very plausible they would lie about a massacre. Its much easier to justify that than it would be an actual massacre, especially when the civilians act violently. Its also possible that admitting some aspect of it would benefit them more than complete denial.
You’d have a point there, if there wasn’t ample photographic evidence which also suggests that no concerted massacre took place, in the square or elsewhere. All available photographic evidence that I’ve seen supports the Chinese government’s version of events: scattered street clashes which unfortunately featured some quite heavy duty violence, but no mass formation of tanks coming in and deliberately schwacking everybody in sight.
You make convincing arguments, and I’m sure you are correct to some degree. I do not believe that the dramatized events suggested by the west are accurate. But, I still think it was a disgusting waste of life that could potentially be described as a massacre.
If you want to find it more, I often recommend the documentary “the gate of heavenly Peace” which you can find on YouTube. If you want to understand a bit of it’s perspective before watching check the reception/controversy section on its Wikipedia page
It wasn’t nice, to be sure. The workers’ protests which happened concurrently with the events of Tiananmen Square were reportedly the source of much of the violence, and it got properly nasty at times. The two events are often conflated though, and I felt it important to draw that distinction. Anyhow, I appreciate your open-mindedness.
Thanks for the thoughtful discussion and I’ll be reading more. I wanted to say I appreciate your detailed reply to my link of violent pictures that was taken down earlier. I was genuinely curious how others viewed that evidence. I can still read your comment in my inbox and will investigate further.
Reactions like yours are why I still bother. All I ever want is for people to look at popular historical and political narratives critically. I apologize if I came off as hostile at all, we get a lot of calumny coming our way, as you might imagine.
Which side allows it to be discussed?
There’s your answer.
There is photographic evidence of what happened at the tiananmen massacre but when I posted it, it was immediately removed. It is well known that the Chinese censor their internet, so comments like this make me think that hexbear is participating in that censorship.
Oh, come off it. Your comment was removed because there was no content warning for violent images, which you were told and which is stated in the modlog.
Here, I’ll post your link with a CW and you can watch it stay up.
CW: Violence, Gore
https://www.aboluowang.com/2008/0529/89034_3.html
We don’t want this to be a space where people could randomly stumble across images of graphic violence they’re not prepared for. You’re not being censored by the CPC, dumbass.
I clearly stated it was pictures of a massacre. Next time I’ll add additional tags. I guess I expected some sort of comment, reply, or message.
Check modlog to see removal reason
Noted, I didn’t know about that, thanks.
I don’t trust anyone, so i will believe the US
That is not what I said
Honestly this is a good default stance, I respect that.
Without a complex and nuanced model of the world, it’s incredibly difficult and exhausting to parse through layers of propaganda and ideology to figure out what actually happened (in any historical context, not just this).
If you’re interested in developing your understanding some more, learning about the existence/possibility of color revolutions helped fill in a lot of gaps for me. Broadly speaking they’re when a foreign actor either foments or co-opts social unrest, which it uses to destabilize and eventually overthrow a government that doesn’t align with the foreign actor’s interests. The Jakarta Method is a great read for learning about this.