I really agree about Selene. Jordan was simultaneously incredible and terrible at at keeping secrets from readers in the early books. I guarantee there will be a few twists that surprise you, and I’m grateful that Rafe is doing a good job keeping those twists close-to-the-vest in the show as well.
One of my complaints for S1 was on behalf of parallel readers like yourself. Eye of the World spoiled the show really fast by letting you know the “main character” and the show spoiled Eye really fast by saying “the main character is the Dragon Reborn”.
As for fast-travel… The existence of several fast-travel mechanisms are in the design of the world, and use of it is more than plot-armor after Eye. Though the one he takes in book 2 is sorta an odd choice that has led to a lot of fan arguments. Avoiding spoilers… a lot of readers wonder why he didn’t just write the Ways for Rand’s travels and just have him wake up there. I think there’s reasons for us to see the Portal Stones (controversially), but can’t get into it and might be wrong anyway :)
I DO think you’re confusing what happened in book 2 a bit, as well. Tel’aran’rhiod was not involved in Rand’s fast-travel to Cairhien. As you might be guessing, though, the world of dreams is going to show up in every book for the rest of the series.
Otherwise, a lot happened in this episode, it’s almost too much. Like in one episode the three women have gone from the tower to prisoners in a far away land under the thumb of Ishamael. Kinda awesome.
Yeah, I agree. I really liked the shift from individual focus to multi-focus while still keeping up the story-building.
Without delving into book spoilers, is it supposed to feel weird and unnerving that Ishamael is playing around with an empire as though he’s a normal human when he clearly has the power to kill everyone whenever he wants?
This is a very difficult question to answer without spoilers (and I had to check a lot of “when things were said”). In the book, as you know, we have a somewhat different Ishamael… Well, they’re the same philosophical mastermind underneath. And you’re obviously right that Ishy could have leveled Tomon Head if he wished to. HOWEVER, you seem to be far enough into the Great Hunt that the below isn’t a spoiler.
I will refer you to a quote you’ve already read in Eye of the World… And I’m putting it behind spoiler tags because it’s a bigger spoiler but you were already dealt all the cards you need to figure it out:
Relevant quote from Eye of the World (not spoiler, but you might not have put it together)
I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come.
You could have put 2 and 2 together about that line by now. If so, and what you’ve read, you can conclude:
Rest of the answer (minor spoiler)
This particular arc of Ishamael’s story didn’t happen in the The Great Hunt and is unique to the show…
Ishy did what we’re seeing on screen 2000 years ago in the books, not today. So what he does in Ep6-8 is everybody’s guess. Not saying he doesn’t have a hand in today’s stuff, but for that Read and Find Out.
I had forgotten about the line from the dark one, and it makes sense. I guess in the show Ishy hasn’t been free the whole time unlike in the book.
I DO think you’re confusing what happened in book 2 a bit, as well. Tel’aran’rhiod was not involved in Rand’s fast-travel to Cairhien.
Well in the book at this point it isn’t entirely clear what that world is. If described it as some kind of dream world just because Selene seems to magically turn up there, and it seemed similar to what the test arches do. Obviously not the same as dreams, but obviously mysterious at this point.
Ahhh… Yeah, that’s fair. It’s been hypothesized that they are similar (or the same) worlds… or not. We don’t see much of the Portal Stones after book 2 to be fair, and that’s not really a spoiler.
We don’t see much of the Portal Stones after book 2 to be fair, and that’s not really a spoiler.
That doesn’t surprise me. It felt really janky in the book, like I said above, it’s as though Jordan just needed to get Rand to Cairhein quickly, and any deeper plot points would probably have felt like derivative parallel universes stuff.
Not to whine too much about the books so far, but the ending of Book 1 established that I might not make it through the series because it seemed like a rushed blunder and didn’t bode well for the series, and while I’m enjoying book 2, that portals world thing with super-on-the-nose Selene out of no where really emphasises the sentiment. I’ll reserve judgment until the end of book 2, with my general aim being to finish book 4 (as that’s apparently when the series really starts), but that portals world with selene sequence really did feel like some low tier fantasy. Like worse than anything in book 1. I’m honestly sad that portal world isn’t some deeper plot point because it feels like quite a taint on book 2 and I’m surprised I hadn’t heard anything about it.
That doesn’t surprise me. It felt really janky in the book, like I said above, it’s as though Jordan just needed to get Rand to Cairhein quickly, and any deeper plot points would probably have felt like derivative parallel universes stuff.
I think he was trying to do something plot-important, and those Mirror Worlds are representative of something important that I think he does with other things. There’s more, but you’re not late enough in book 2 for me to discuss it with you without spoilers yet.
that portals world thing with super-on-the-nose Selene out of no where really emphasises the sentiment
When you’re done with Book 2, let me know and I might be able to give you a different take on this :) There are theories that were never confirmed/denied here.
I’ll reserve judgment until the end of book 2, with my general aim being to finish book 4 (as that’s apparently when the series really starts)
I would say the series really starts early in book 4. Book 4 is largely considered the best book in the series, and it’s the big character-growth book for several major players.
but that portals world with selene sequence really did feel like some low tier fantasy
Without spoilers (see above), I think it was intended to feel like low-tier fantasy.
Spoiler through S2E4, theory about Portal Stones and Selene
Of course it’s on the nose. Rand didn’t accidentally channel there. Lanfear intentionally channeled him there, and made it look like it was him so she could have time with him and manipulate him (away from those around him).
There was no “win” for plot by him getting to Cairhien before the hunters. It was a win for one of the Forsaken to get him (mostly) alone.
And as for opportunity… THAT we can discuss after you finish The Great Hunt… or maybe a lot later I’m not sure. My theory on how Rand got to a Portal Stone at all is a lot more spoilery and more of a stretch.
Spoiler through S2E4, theory about Portal Stones and Selene
Thanks! I figured as much re Lanfear … part of why I say the whole thing is a bit on the nose. The moment she turns up and even Rand is confused about how she managed to defend herself against the monster you know she’s behind Rand getting there. The reason I called it a dream land of some sort was I figured it might have even been a special construct of Lanfear’s.
The only thing that muddies the waters about what the portal land actually is or if for … is the movements of Fain and his group. It’s not clear (at this point in the book) why they’re zig-zagging around (it being Lanfear’s directions would be my best guess ATM??) and what it means that Hurin could pick up they’re scent in the portal world at what seems to be ahead of their actual arrival.
As to how Rand ended up a portal stone … that seems way too spoilery for me at this point!
part of why I say the whole thing is a bit on the nose
Pretty quickly you’re realizing that Lanfear is simultaneously the most devious of the forsaken and the most immature. She wanted to be the princess swept off her feet by the reincarnation of her old jilted lover. I know “princesses” like that, and I’m sure you do. Imagine if that princess had a 150 IQ and was the most powerful sorceress in known human history. Jordan practically invented the modern practice of turning fantasy tropes on their head, and that’s what he did here with Selene… In a way that I think he intended to be really obvious. But maybe could have been a bit less obvious anyway.
The reason I called it a dream land of some sort was I figured it might have even been a special construct of Lanfear’s.
Ahhh… I never thought of it that way. You’ve probably already realized from our conversation that it isn’t a construct of hers, but it would make a lot of sense if it had been.
It’s not clear (at this point in the book) why they’re zig-zagging around
My opinion is that he’s playing possum. But also… the fade nailed to a wall was meant to be an obvious change of leadership (which means change of plans).
and what it means that Hurin could pick up they’re scent in the portal world at what seems to be ahead of their actual arrival.
A regular idea of Jordan’s is that “time works differently in other worlds”. It genuinely may be no deeper than that, consistent throughout the books. We don’t get too much info into the workings of sniffers, unfortunately.
As to how Rand ended up a portal stone … that seems way too spoilery for me at this point!
Yup :). I can say that it’s all theory and never specifically said. So mere chance (with Lanfear being opportunistic) is possible. Like waygates, portal stones are somewhat common. Unlike waygates, the commonness of portal stones doesn’t matter much. Waygates are important to the story in ways that I know Jordan had already considered when he introduced one in book 1 (spoilers through aMoL, so stopping there).
Sorry for the double-reply, but I noticed something worth covering.
the ending of Book 1 established that I might not make it through the series because it seemed like a rushed blunder
The ending of book 1 is absolutely the worst scene in the entire series. Try not to judge it too hard from it. Jordan was convinced he would not get renewed to complete his series, and planned for that eventuality. The Eye climax was written to be epic enough and give enough closure that he could sleep at night if he didn’t get a book 2. He did similar for Book 3, but with years more forethought and so it’s written better.
Yeah. Long-running fantasy series were rare in the late 80’s and early 90’s. Fantasy was still largely bargain-bin tier alongside Harlequin Romance. A few people tried, but Wheel of Time is arguably only the second Epic Fantasy to ever get mainstream respect. Even Epic Sci-Fi was risky. Before Wheel of Time opened the door, the only other Epic than LotR that got any respect at all was Shannara… and it would never have gotten a $100M television budget (aSoIaF opened the door for that, but it’s not technically Epic Fantasy, either). I mean, Riftwar Saga got a video game (Betrayal at Krondor), but people remember the game more than the books.
So suffice to say, publishers were very weak on promises, and generally only signed books with a beginning, a middle, and an end. Renewals were incredibly rare and far between. Ironically, we had a couple great masterpieces back then, but they didn’t get marketed or remembered like they can now.
I really agree about Selene. Jordan was simultaneously incredible and terrible at at keeping secrets from readers in the early books. I guarantee there will be a few twists that surprise you, and I’m grateful that Rafe is doing a good job keeping those twists close-to-the-vest in the show as well.
One of my complaints for S1 was on behalf of parallel readers like yourself. Eye of the World spoiled the show really fast by letting you know the “main character” and the show spoiled Eye really fast by saying “the main character is the Dragon Reborn”.
As for fast-travel… The existence of several fast-travel mechanisms are in the design of the world, and use of it is more than plot-armor after Eye. Though the one he takes in book 2 is sorta an odd choice that has led to a lot of fan arguments. Avoiding spoilers… a lot of readers wonder why he didn’t just write the Ways for Rand’s travels and just have him wake up there. I think there’s reasons for us to see the Portal Stones (controversially), but can’t get into it and might be wrong anyway :)
I DO think you’re confusing what happened in book 2 a bit, as well. Tel’aran’rhiod was not involved in Rand’s fast-travel to Cairhien. As you might be guessing, though, the world of dreams is going to show up in every book for the rest of the series.
Yeah, I agree. I really liked the shift from individual focus to multi-focus while still keeping up the story-building.
This is a very difficult question to answer without spoilers (and I had to check a lot of “when things were said”). In the book, as you know, we have a somewhat different Ishamael… Well, they’re the same philosophical mastermind underneath. And you’re obviously right that Ishy could have leveled Tomon Head if he wished to. HOWEVER, you seem to be far enough into the Great Hunt that the below isn’t a spoiler.
I will refer you to a quote you’ve already read in Eye of the World… And I’m putting it behind spoiler tags because it’s a bigger spoiler but you were already dealt all the cards you need to figure it out:
Relevant quote from Eye of the World (not spoiler, but you might not have put it together)
You could have put 2 and 2 together about that line by now. If so, and what you’ve read, you can conclude:
Rest of the answer (minor spoiler)
This particular arc of Ishamael’s story didn’t happen in the The Great Hunt and is unique to the show…
Ishy did what we’re seeing on screen 2000 years ago in the books, not today. So what he does in Ep6-8 is everybody’s guess. Not saying he doesn’t have a hand in today’s stuff, but for that Read and Find Out.
Thanks so much for the detailed response!!
I had forgotten about the line from the dark one, and it makes sense. I guess in the show Ishy hasn’t been free the whole time unlike in the book.
Well in the book at this point it isn’t entirely clear what that world is. If described it as some kind of dream world just because Selene seems to magically turn up there, and it seemed similar to what the test arches do. Obviously not the same as dreams, but obviously mysterious at this point.
Ahhh… Yeah, that’s fair. It’s been hypothesized that they are similar (or the same) worlds… or not. We don’t see much of the Portal Stones after book 2 to be fair, and that’s not really a spoiler.
That doesn’t surprise me. It felt really janky in the book, like I said above, it’s as though Jordan just needed to get Rand to Cairhein quickly, and any deeper plot points would probably have felt like derivative parallel universes stuff.
Not to whine too much about the books so far, but the ending of Book 1 established that I might not make it through the series because it seemed like a rushed blunder and didn’t bode well for the series, and while I’m enjoying book 2, that portals world thing with super-on-the-nose Selene out of no where really emphasises the sentiment. I’ll reserve judgment until the end of book 2, with my general aim being to finish book 4 (as that’s apparently when the series really starts), but that portals world with selene sequence really did feel like some low tier fantasy. Like worse than anything in book 1. I’m honestly sad that portal world isn’t some deeper plot point because it feels like quite a taint on book 2 and I’m surprised I hadn’t heard anything about it.
I think he was trying to do something plot-important, and those Mirror Worlds are representative of something important that I think he does with other things. There’s more, but you’re not late enough in book 2 for me to discuss it with you without spoilers yet.
When you’re done with Book 2, let me know and I might be able to give you a different take on this :) There are theories that were never confirmed/denied here.
I would say the series really starts early in book 4. Book 4 is largely considered the best book in the series, and it’s the big character-growth book for several major players.
Without spoilers (see above), I think it was intended to feel like low-tier fantasy.
Will do!
Actually, you’re already through S2E5, right? So…
Spoiler through S2E4, theory about Portal Stones and Selene
Of course it’s on the nose. Rand didn’t accidentally channel there. Lanfear intentionally channeled him there, and made it look like it was him so she could have time with him and manipulate him (away from those around him).
There was no “win” for plot by him getting to Cairhien before the hunters. It was a win for one of the Forsaken to get him (mostly) alone.
And as for opportunity… THAT we can discuss after you finish The Great Hunt… or maybe a lot later I’m not sure. My theory on how Rand got to a Portal Stone at all is a lot more spoilery and more of a stretch.
Spoiler through S2E4, theory about Portal Stones and Selene
Thanks! I figured as much re Lanfear … part of why I say the whole thing is a bit on the nose. The moment she turns up and even Rand is confused about how she managed to defend herself against the monster you know she’s behind Rand getting there. The reason I called it a dream land of some sort was I figured it might have even been a special construct of Lanfear’s.
The only thing that muddies the waters about what the portal land actually is or if for … is the movements of Fain and his group. It’s not clear (at this point in the book) why they’re zig-zagging around (it being Lanfear’s directions would be my best guess ATM??) and what it means that Hurin could pick up they’re scent in the portal world at what seems to be ahead of their actual arrival.
As to how Rand ended up a portal stone … that seems way too spoilery for me at this point!
Thanks again!!
Pretty quickly you’re realizing that Lanfear is simultaneously the most devious of the forsaken and the most immature. She wanted to be the princess swept off her feet by the reincarnation of her old jilted lover. I know “princesses” like that, and I’m sure you do. Imagine if that princess had a 150 IQ and was the most powerful sorceress in known human history. Jordan practically invented the modern practice of turning fantasy tropes on their head, and that’s what he did here with Selene… In a way that I think he intended to be really obvious. But maybe could have been a bit less obvious anyway.
Ahhh… I never thought of it that way. You’ve probably already realized from our conversation that it isn’t a construct of hers, but it would make a lot of sense if it had been.
My opinion is that he’s playing possum. But also… the fade nailed to a wall was meant to be an obvious change of leadership (which means change of plans).
A regular idea of Jordan’s is that “time works differently in other worlds”. It genuinely may be no deeper than that, consistent throughout the books. We don’t get too much info into the workings of sniffers, unfortunately.
Yup :). I can say that it’s all theory and never specifically said. So mere chance (with Lanfear being opportunistic) is possible. Like waygates, portal stones are somewhat common. Unlike waygates, the commonness of portal stones doesn’t matter much. Waygates are important to the story in ways that I know Jordan had already considered when he introduced one in book 1 (spoilers through aMoL, so stopping there).
Sorry for the double-reply, but I noticed something worth covering.
The ending of book 1 is absolutely the worst scene in the entire series. Try not to judge it too hard from it. Jordan was convinced he would not get renewed to complete his series, and planned for that eventuality. The Eye climax was written to be epic enough and give enough closure that he could sleep at night if he didn’t get a book 2. He did similar for Book 3, but with years more forethought and so it’s written better.
Oh I figured … I try not to judge it too harshly … it’s mostly that it was pretty jarring for a celebrated series.
Interesting to hear about book 3 … was it not clear he would be able to continue the series afterwards?
Yeah. Long-running fantasy series were rare in the late 80’s and early 90’s. Fantasy was still largely bargain-bin tier alongside Harlequin Romance. A few people tried, but Wheel of Time is arguably only the second Epic Fantasy to ever get mainstream respect. Even Epic Sci-Fi was risky. Before Wheel of Time opened the door, the only other Epic than LotR that got any respect at all was Shannara… and it would never have gotten a $100M television budget (aSoIaF opened the door for that, but it’s not technically Epic Fantasy, either). I mean, Riftwar Saga got a video game (Betrayal at Krondor), but people remember the game more than the books.
So suffice to say, publishers were very weak on promises, and generally only signed books with a beginning, a middle, and an end. Renewals were incredibly rare and far between. Ironically, we had a couple great masterpieces back then, but they didn’t get marketed or remembered like they can now.