God nothing is more annoying than brain damaged American progressives who think they’re intellectuals. Even if we ignore your strawman, the very idea that there are people who are close minded enough to actually actively refuse to even be exposed to any ideas that they might dislike or disagree with is insane. Keep in mind, the tolerance paradox says that intolerant ideas shouldn’t be tolerated, it doesn’t say that you should go full 1984 censoring and controlling information and turning authoritarian on anything you deem intolerant. The whole point of the paradox is to demonstrate that if a society wants to remain free and democratic, then it needs to oppose intolerance and authoritarianism in all its forms… via democratic processes. Otherwise, it’s another society that has become corrupted. The principles of liberty and democracy, as well as their universality, should never be abandoned.
I hate you. I despise you so deeply that I will use all my capital to move the democratic process. I am going to use the freedom you have given me to manipulate everyone into thinking you are the scum of the earth, unworthy of existence. I will demonize your actions on every turn. I will destroy you, your culture, and your very existentce. I just have to yell it long and hard enough and people will flock to my voice that I have been given on your platforms. And you will do nothing about it, even when you manage to expose my lies. It is you that is the cause of all our problems we face. Soon enough people just repeat what I say and believe me over anything you might utter. I have just convinced people of what you truly are. And their vote will sign your death warrant.
My point still stands. You can’t use hate, ignorance, and authoritarianism to defeat hate, ignorance, and authoritarianism. The only thing that will end up happening is you turning hateful, ignorant, and authoritarian. We have already seen this happen time and time again. It’s time for people to learn from history for once instead of just repeating it. Censorship NEVER works, authoritarianism NEVER works. The very reason why the people you described ever get into power is because of people like you who fall into a brainless cycle of purity tests, arrogance, and exploitation of power. You want to see bigots stop being bigots? Try talking to them. Not talk down to them, not convince them of anything, just try to understand why they think the way they do, how they came to be, and how they perceive the world. By understanding them you can find some common ground and from there you can introduce to them alternative ideas like tolerance, justice, coexistence, and peace. You can’t ban bigots, you can’t censor them, you can’t genocide them, and no amount of power abused will make them go away. Talking them is the only way. Keep mind talking to them isn’t a sign of weakness or a concession. Virtue signaling means fuck all when it makes things worse. Talking to people, having them exposed to new ideas and views, and treating people you don’t like (even if they’re vile) as humans is how a black man in the US managed to convince dozens of KKK klansmen into giving up their robes.
Because those people who gave up their robes saw that they were misguided and were open to new ideas. But some still have kept their hearts closed because some are just unwilling to have their convictions changed. KKK is still a thing, after all that talking. Raceism is still an issue, even when we tried giving them space.
Sometimes it is more than misguidence. Sometimes people just hate, and grudge. And when these people are given power they are able to spread their hate and misguide once more. And then we might have another Nazi Germany, where it will take a war to have it corrected. We didn’t get the Nazi’s to stop with just words. Are we able to have China stop doing it now, with just words? Are words helping in Palestina?
And in this day and age of the internet, even when we show those people the world that they can access. Show them how misguided their hatred is. They still choose to hate.
These words I wrote are in their hearts. Outside they tell sweet veiled words like ‘we must protect our children’ and ‘they are taking your jobs’. They will convince people against all facts, that the others chose this. That something genetic, is chosen. Never will they tell in those clear words what they truly want, because any sane moral person would see it for what it is.
At some point they manage to convince their followers that they are the truth, that anyone trying to guide them away to sanity is lying to them. And then the cycle completes and new unchangable hate-ist is born to spread the infection. See anti-vaxxers, see Q, see any conspiracy group that convinces their members everyone else is lying.
So, would you rather have a tyranny where people are allowed to just be. But where ideas of raceism and exclusion is censored.
Or a tyranny of the hateful that will one day knock on your door for telling the lies of inclusion?
Because those people who gave up their robes saw that they were misguided and were open to new ideas. But some still have kept their hearts closed because some are just unwilling to have their convictions changed. KKK is still a thing, after all that talking. Raceism is still an issue, even when we tried giving them space.
How can you miss the point this badly? How do you think those klansmen were able to see that were misguided and wrong? It wasn’t done by magic, it was done by this one man who actually took the time to talk to them. He didn’t try to lecture them or convince them or try to show off how morally superior he is. No, he just sat down with them and tried to understand why they think the way they do. All he did was ask questions and listen. The klansmen were just as scared of him as they he was of them. But guess what? By talking to them, this man managed to expose these people to new ideas. His questions helped challenge their own views, his presence helped break down stereotypes that they held, his curiosity and sociable attitude made him likable and relatable. He showed them that they can be friends with someone of a different race, that coexistence with people from different races can work, and that being a different race doesn’t make you any less of a man. That’s how they came to the realization that their racist beliefs weren’t right and gave up their robes.
This man, Daryl Davis, didn’t endorse the views of the KKK, he didn’t support the racism, and he wasn’t a klansman. Talking to them didn’t change his views and it didn’t make him supportive of the KKK. This rotten mentality of guilt by association is stupid, especially when it’s coupled with the equally as stupid mentality of trying to achieve political purity. If you actually care about making a change then you have to put aside the theatrics and reflect on why this man was so successful in making people change their minds and why you’re not. By casting off and segregating people into rigid categories, you’re turning yourself into the thing you claim to be against. This type of mentality is what led the KKK to think the way they do. The kkk thought that associating with a black person made you a race traitor, that their communities needed to be pure of any interracial mixing, and that their views are the right ones no matter what and any white person who disagreed with them is either ignorant or evil.
Keep in mind, the point of talking to people is to have them exposed to new ideas and to establish a common ground that can be used as a foundation for understanding. That’s how you have people shift from blind ideological fanaticism to pragmatism. That’s how you have ignorant bigots turn into empathic people. There will never be a 100% conversion rate or a complete eradication of anything. Some people will be bigots no matter what, and that’s fine. If talking to bigots manages to turn half into not being bigots anymore that’s a win. Actually changing the mind of just one bigot into not being a bigot is a win. If you approach people with an open mind and develop an understanding, you are much more likely to give them that experience that would lead them change their minds.
And you didn’t answer my question. And didn’t adress my points. And I got your point:
There will never be a 100% conversion rate or a complete eradication of anything. Some people will be bigots no matter what, and that’s fine.
You are even admitting there is a limit to this approach. Mind, I am not against having a talk. I am not against having an open mind and guide people to a healthier mindset.
But as you said, there are some who don’t wish to change. And these unwilling people should not be given a platform. Because these unwilling people will poison hearts and form a new KKK or a new Nazi Germany when left unchecked. Words have limits when power has been given to those unwilling people.
Answer me this: Did we stop Nazi Germany with just words? Are words helping in China for the Uyghurs?
Are you for a tyranny that censors people who spew raceism and unbiased hate?
Or are you for a tyranny where you will get a knock on your door for telling the lies of inclusion?
But as you said, there are some who don’t wish to change. And these unwilling people should not be given a platform. Because these unwilling people will poison hearts and form a new KKK or a new Nazi Germany when left unchecked. Words have limits when power has been given to those unwilling people.
I think there are two separate issues being discussed here. The first is should we engage with these people and the second is whether or not we should platform these people.
For the former I think it’s in the best interest of society as a whole to give everybody engagement no matter how vile their views are. Even if we assume there’s a theoretical limit, we can’t determine who will and won’t fall into that category. It took Daryl Davis years to change Roger Kelly’s views about the KKK and racism. Kelly is the type of person that we would assume falls into this category. He was a grand wizard for the KKK, and he had a notorious reputation which is how he climbed the ranks… yet with enough effort and persistence, Davis managed to change his mind. My point is that if we want to effectively decrease bigotry in general, then engaging people in good faith regradless of their views is a path that has proven to work. It is what Davis did, but on a societal scale.
As for the latter, I think there’s inherent value in letting these people express themselves freely. For staters, they have the right to do so. We have to respect our principles and stand by them. If values like freedom of speech really are rights, then they have to apply to everyone no matter what otherwise the whole concept loses meaning because if rights can be taken away at a whim then they’re not rights, they’re privileges. I think that’s a pretty dangerous path to go down. It creates a precedent for those in power to feel comfortable enough to abuse that power to their advantage. That’s what censorship is, it is officials abusing the power given to them to push their agenda. This sounds good when the people we like are in power and they’re censoring the things we don’t like, but politics is not static. Sooner or later, the political makeup of the government will shift. If the government now has people in office that we don’t like, then guess what? They now have the same tools and justifications that the people we like did. If they decide to treat your political views the same way we treat racist views, then they will be coming after you. They will try to censor you. I don’t our society to ever be in that position. That’s why rights must be universal and untouched. No matter how offensive, no matter how controversial, no matter how vile everyone should have their right to free speech fully protected. They sanctity of these rights serve as a line of defense against tyranny. Keep in mind, I’m not talking about private companies or individuals not wanting to platform people, I understand that freedom of association is a thing and I respect it (although as citizens we should adhere to the principles we deem as rights). I’m talking about the government refusing to allow these people to protest or to hold rallies or launch their own media.
Did we stop Nazi Germany with just words?
We didn’t go to war with Germany out of the goodness of our hearts or because of the actions of the Nazi regime. We went to war with because they declared war on us after Imperial Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.
Are words helping in China for the Uyghurs?
They are actually. Spreading awareness about China’s ethnic cleansing has actually been making a real impact. It has helped put pressure on the CCP, it has helped some people in China see what’s going, it has countered Chinese propaganda, and so on. We could, should, and must do more but talking about what’s happening to the Uyghurs is sure more helpful than saying nothing.
Are you for a tyranny that censors people who spew raceism and unbiased hate?
Or are you for a tyranny where you will get a knock on your door for telling the lies of inclusion?
The tolerance paradox is the original topic here. And your definitely-not-talking-down-‘I hate brain damaged American progressives’ response introduced the topics of authoritarianism and censorship from your interpretation of the paradox. The original post was not about those things. It was about not giving bigots a place on this platform. And proposed that they should not be given any platform at all.
Sure, my first response to you was a bit overboard and unnecessarily antagonistic. And you might have tried returning the energy of the original response in turn. I perceived your energy from the ‘brain damaged’-response, and tried to reflect it back. I might have overshot the intensity of it.
Furthermore, I never said the war with the Nazis was started for humanitarian reasons; I said it was needed. I am not going to diminish the efforts of the resistance movements. Even when America decided not to join the war, it would have resulted in an armed uprising. I am just grateful for the sacrifices that were made for me to live in a society that allows free speech but knows the consequences of not doing anything to stop bigotry. We engage, I engage, I keep an open mind, and I talk to people. We encourage people to sort out their anger issues and misgivings. But at some point, our tolerance runs out. At some point, the social contract is broken, and a persistent bigot should not be given the luxury of tolerance.
Where I live, if what I wrote in my original reply was written with full earnestness and I kept trying to spread those words, I would face consequences. Escalating consequences if I were not willing to change. Engagement is not in question here. There will be engagements. First within the community, then with consultants, and finally within a court of law.
If you ask the bigots here, they will say that we are already living in a ‘tyranny of inclusion’. The constitution of my country has it written in its first article that discrimination on grounds of religion, belief, political opinion, race, gender, disability, sexual orientation or any other basis is prohibited. And I don’t think I live in an authoritarian state. Sure, I might suffer from the ‘fish in the pond’ perspective. Still, I wanted to point out that the ‘false dichotomy’ is a perspective issue. But I hope we can all agree that the alternative is much, much worse.
I tried guessing your location. Your responses of ‘they declared war on us […] Pearl Harbor’ and ‘brain damaged American progressives’ had me confused. So I looked at your comment history. And you are really not practicing what you preach. You keep invoking Daryl Davis as the saint of engagement, and you keep preaching about not talking down to people. I think that is all just self-serving nonsense now. All that so you can keep the engagement to talk down on people. Because the ‘brain damage’ you used here is not the first. And reading through some ‘[this is] subhuman trash’ responses makes me think you are not that open-minded yourself.
So this will be my last reply on this subject. You can count it as a win if it pleases you. Have fun; I won’t be seeing you.
God nothing is more annoying than brain damaged American progressives who think they’re intellectuals. Even if we ignore your strawman, the very idea that there are people who are close minded enough to actually actively refuse to even be exposed to any ideas that they might dislike or disagree with is insane. Keep in mind, the tolerance paradox says that intolerant ideas shouldn’t be tolerated, it doesn’t say that you should go full 1984 censoring and controlling information and turning authoritarian on anything you deem intolerant. The whole point of the paradox is to demonstrate that if a society wants to remain free and democratic, then it needs to oppose intolerance and authoritarianism in all its forms… via democratic processes. Otherwise, it’s another society that has become corrupted. The principles of liberty and democracy, as well as their universality, should never be abandoned.
I hate you. I despise you so deeply that I will use all my capital to move the democratic process. I am going to use the freedom you have given me to manipulate everyone into thinking you are the scum of the earth, unworthy of existence. I will demonize your actions on every turn. I will destroy you, your culture, and your very existentce. I just have to yell it long and hard enough and people will flock to my voice that I have been given on your platforms. And you will do nothing about it, even when you manage to expose my lies. It is you that is the cause of all our problems we face. Soon enough people just repeat what I say and believe me over anything you might utter. I have just convinced people of what you truly are. And their vote will sign your death warrant.
My point still stands. You can’t use hate, ignorance, and authoritarianism to defeat hate, ignorance, and authoritarianism. The only thing that will end up happening is you turning hateful, ignorant, and authoritarian. We have already seen this happen time and time again. It’s time for people to learn from history for once instead of just repeating it. Censorship NEVER works, authoritarianism NEVER works. The very reason why the people you described ever get into power is because of people like you who fall into a brainless cycle of purity tests, arrogance, and exploitation of power. You want to see bigots stop being bigots? Try talking to them. Not talk down to them, not convince them of anything, just try to understand why they think the way they do, how they came to be, and how they perceive the world. By understanding them you can find some common ground and from there you can introduce to them alternative ideas like tolerance, justice, coexistence, and peace. You can’t ban bigots, you can’t censor them, you can’t genocide them, and no amount of power abused will make them go away. Talking them is the only way. Keep mind talking to them isn’t a sign of weakness or a concession. Virtue signaling means fuck all when it makes things worse. Talking to people, having them exposed to new ideas and views, and treating people you don’t like (even if they’re vile) as humans is how a black man in the US managed to convince dozens of KKK klansmen into giving up their robes.
wrong
Because those people who gave up their robes saw that they were misguided and were open to new ideas. But some still have kept their hearts closed because some are just unwilling to have their convictions changed. KKK is still a thing, after all that talking. Raceism is still an issue, even when we tried giving them space.
Sometimes it is more than misguidence. Sometimes people just hate, and grudge. And when these people are given power they are able to spread their hate and misguide once more. And then we might have another Nazi Germany, where it will take a war to have it corrected. We didn’t get the Nazi’s to stop with just words. Are we able to have China stop doing it now, with just words? Are words helping in Palestina?
And in this day and age of the internet, even when we show those people the world that they can access. Show them how misguided their hatred is. They still choose to hate.
These words I wrote are in their hearts. Outside they tell sweet veiled words like ‘we must protect our children’ and ‘they are taking your jobs’. They will convince people against all facts, that the others chose this. That something genetic, is chosen. Never will they tell in those clear words what they truly want, because any sane moral person would see it for what it is.
At some point they manage to convince their followers that they are the truth, that anyone trying to guide them away to sanity is lying to them. And then the cycle completes and new unchangable hate-ist is born to spread the infection. See anti-vaxxers, see Q, see any conspiracy group that convinces their members everyone else is lying.
So, would you rather have a tyranny where people are allowed to just be. But where ideas of raceism and exclusion is censored.
Or a tyranny of the hateful that will one day knock on your door for telling the lies of inclusion?
How can you miss the point this badly? How do you think those klansmen were able to see that were misguided and wrong? It wasn’t done by magic, it was done by this one man who actually took the time to talk to them. He didn’t try to lecture them or convince them or try to show off how morally superior he is. No, he just sat down with them and tried to understand why they think the way they do. All he did was ask questions and listen. The klansmen were just as scared of him as they he was of them. But guess what? By talking to them, this man managed to expose these people to new ideas. His questions helped challenge their own views, his presence helped break down stereotypes that they held, his curiosity and sociable attitude made him likable and relatable. He showed them that they can be friends with someone of a different race, that coexistence with people from different races can work, and that being a different race doesn’t make you any less of a man. That’s how they came to the realization that their racist beliefs weren’t right and gave up their robes.
This man, Daryl Davis, didn’t endorse the views of the KKK, he didn’t support the racism, and he wasn’t a klansman. Talking to them didn’t change his views and it didn’t make him supportive of the KKK. This rotten mentality of guilt by association is stupid, especially when it’s coupled with the equally as stupid mentality of trying to achieve political purity. If you actually care about making a change then you have to put aside the theatrics and reflect on why this man was so successful in making people change their minds and why you’re not. By casting off and segregating people into rigid categories, you’re turning yourself into the thing you claim to be against. This type of mentality is what led the KKK to think the way they do. The kkk thought that associating with a black person made you a race traitor, that their communities needed to be pure of any interracial mixing, and that their views are the right ones no matter what and any white person who disagreed with them is either ignorant or evil.
Keep in mind, the point of talking to people is to have them exposed to new ideas and to establish a common ground that can be used as a foundation for understanding. That’s how you have people shift from blind ideological fanaticism to pragmatism. That’s how you have ignorant bigots turn into empathic people. There will never be a 100% conversion rate or a complete eradication of anything. Some people will be bigots no matter what, and that’s fine. If talking to bigots manages to turn half into not being bigots anymore that’s a win. Actually changing the mind of just one bigot into not being a bigot is a win. If you approach people with an open mind and develop an understanding, you are much more likely to give them that experience that would lead them change their minds.
And you didn’t answer my question. And didn’t adress my points. And I got your point:
You are even admitting there is a limit to this approach. Mind, I am not against having a talk. I am not against having an open mind and guide people to a healthier mindset.
But as you said, there are some who don’t wish to change. And these unwilling people should not be given a platform. Because these unwilling people will poison hearts and form a new KKK or a new Nazi Germany when left unchecked. Words have limits when power has been given to those unwilling people.
Answer me this: Did we stop Nazi Germany with just words? Are words helping in China for the Uyghurs?
Are you for a tyranny that censors people who spew raceism and unbiased hate?
Or are you for a tyranny where you will get a knock on your door for telling the lies of inclusion?
I think there are two separate issues being discussed here. The first is should we engage with these people and the second is whether or not we should platform these people.
For the former I think it’s in the best interest of society as a whole to give everybody engagement no matter how vile their views are. Even if we assume there’s a theoretical limit, we can’t determine who will and won’t fall into that category. It took Daryl Davis years to change Roger Kelly’s views about the KKK and racism. Kelly is the type of person that we would assume falls into this category. He was a grand wizard for the KKK, and he had a notorious reputation which is how he climbed the ranks… yet with enough effort and persistence, Davis managed to change his mind. My point is that if we want to effectively decrease bigotry in general, then engaging people in good faith regradless of their views is a path that has proven to work. It is what Davis did, but on a societal scale.
As for the latter, I think there’s inherent value in letting these people express themselves freely. For staters, they have the right to do so. We have to respect our principles and stand by them. If values like freedom of speech really are rights, then they have to apply to everyone no matter what otherwise the whole concept loses meaning because if rights can be taken away at a whim then they’re not rights, they’re privileges. I think that’s a pretty dangerous path to go down. It creates a precedent for those in power to feel comfortable enough to abuse that power to their advantage. That’s what censorship is, it is officials abusing the power given to them to push their agenda. This sounds good when the people we like are in power and they’re censoring the things we don’t like, but politics is not static. Sooner or later, the political makeup of the government will shift. If the government now has people in office that we don’t like, then guess what? They now have the same tools and justifications that the people we like did. If they decide to treat your political views the same way we treat racist views, then they will be coming after you. They will try to censor you. I don’t our society to ever be in that position. That’s why rights must be universal and untouched. No matter how offensive, no matter how controversial, no matter how vile everyone should have their right to free speech fully protected. They sanctity of these rights serve as a line of defense against tyranny. Keep in mind, I’m not talking about private companies or individuals not wanting to platform people, I understand that freedom of association is a thing and I respect it (although as citizens we should adhere to the principles we deem as rights). I’m talking about the government refusing to allow these people to protest or to hold rallies or launch their own media.
We didn’t go to war with Germany out of the goodness of our hearts or because of the actions of the Nazi regime. We went to war with because they declared war on us after Imperial Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.
They are actually. Spreading awareness about China’s ethnic cleansing has actually been making a real impact. It has helped put pressure on the CCP, it has helped some people in China see what’s going, it has countered Chinese propaganda, and so on. We could, should, and must do more but talking about what’s happening to the Uyghurs is sure more helpful than saying nothing.
False dichotomy, I’m against both.
The tolerance paradox is the original topic here. And your definitely-not-talking-down-‘I hate brain damaged American progressives’ response introduced the topics of authoritarianism and censorship from your interpretation of the paradox. The original post was not about those things. It was about not giving bigots a place on this platform. And proposed that they should not be given any platform at all.
Sure, my first response to you was a bit overboard and unnecessarily antagonistic. And you might have tried returning the energy of the original response in turn. I perceived your energy from the ‘brain damaged’-response, and tried to reflect it back. I might have overshot the intensity of it.
Furthermore, I never said the war with the Nazis was started for humanitarian reasons; I said it was needed. I am not going to diminish the efforts of the resistance movements. Even when America decided not to join the war, it would have resulted in an armed uprising. I am just grateful for the sacrifices that were made for me to live in a society that allows free speech but knows the consequences of not doing anything to stop bigotry. We engage, I engage, I keep an open mind, and I talk to people. We encourage people to sort out their anger issues and misgivings. But at some point, our tolerance runs out. At some point, the social contract is broken, and a persistent bigot should not be given the luxury of tolerance.
Where I live, if what I wrote in my original reply was written with full earnestness and I kept trying to spread those words, I would face consequences. Escalating consequences if I were not willing to change. Engagement is not in question here. There will be engagements. First within the community, then with consultants, and finally within a court of law.
If you ask the bigots here, they will say that we are already living in a ‘tyranny of inclusion’. The constitution of my country has it written in its first article that discrimination on grounds of religion, belief, political opinion, race, gender, disability, sexual orientation or any other basis is prohibited. And I don’t think I live in an authoritarian state. Sure, I might suffer from the ‘fish in the pond’ perspective. Still, I wanted to point out that the ‘false dichotomy’ is a perspective issue. But I hope we can all agree that the alternative is much, much worse.
I tried guessing your location. Your responses of ‘they declared war on us […] Pearl Harbor’ and ‘brain damaged American progressives’ had me confused. So I looked at your comment history. And you are really not practicing what you preach. You keep invoking Daryl Davis as the saint of engagement, and you keep preaching about not talking down to people. I think that is all just self-serving nonsense now. All that so you can keep the engagement to talk down on people. Because the ‘brain damage’ you used here is not the first. And reading through some ‘[this is] subhuman trash’ responses makes me think you are not that open-minded yourself.
So this will be my last reply on this subject. You can count it as a win if it pleases you. Have fun; I won’t be seeing you.