• Gazumi@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    63
    arrow-down
    51
    ·
    1 year ago

    This is a tragedy, but similar to the invasion of Ukraine with Isreal being Russia.

    • BabyWah@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      77
      arrow-down
      27
      ·
      edit-2
      1 year ago

      Wow, no one is going to mention what Israel is doing to these people? I don’t agree with terrorists, but the replies should be more nuanced than ‘bad Palestines’.

      In my eyes, as an outsider following the news, Israel has pushed Palestinians to the brink by killing Palestine civilians, seizing more of their land AGAIN and having a dictator for a president that just changed the constitution…

      If you take people’s land, your military kills children, films and laughs about it, push them into poverty, and then come for their homes… Sometimes this is the only way to say ‘enough’.

      • homoludens@feddit.de
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        32
        arrow-down
        5
        ·
        1 year ago

        I think the tragedy is that this goes both ways: if a group of people that just escaped a genocide, gets attacked by all its neighboring countries as soon as they have a state of their own, are explicitly threatened with extinction and are attacked over and over again by military actions and terrorist attacks… sometimes people will try to assert absolute dominance in order to try to ensure their own physical safety above everything else.

        Note: I am very much not justifying any of the above. I just think that it’s not very surprising that people act this way, and that Hamas & Co of course know this - just as the Israeli government & Co know how people react to their actions. In my opinion neither the Israeli government (and orthodox settlers etc.) nor the Hamas (and similar groups) are honestly trying to unfuck the situation.

        • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          1 year ago

          I wish more people could look at this like you. The violence currently ongoing in Israel is unconscionable – no treatment can justify attacking civilians. It’s just as unconscionable as Israel bombing civilians in Palestine.

          Neither action is productive even in a war context. Killing civilians doesn’t get you closer to your goal. It just makes your enemy even angrier and gives them righteous justification for their actions. But even that doesn’t justify them killing your civilians.

          Hamas and Israel’s conservative government are content to keep killing innocent people – to what end? How do they not see that it’s completely unproductive to their own goals?

      • ron209@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        23
        arrow-down
        14
        ·
        1 year ago

        Come live in israel and see how is it for us. And I’m saying this as a left wing pro human rights anti settlement opposer of the current fascist government

        • chunkystyles@sopuli.xyz
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          18
          arrow-down
          8
          ·
          1 year ago

          I’m glad you oppose you fascist government. Sadly, like it is here in America, a lot of the citizens support the fascism. If you see interviews with Israelis, they often talk like Palestinians aren’t even human. It’s so saddening.

      • bobman@unilem.org
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        10
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        1 year ago

        I think he’s saying that it’s like Israel is the invader, similar to Russia.

    • Gazumi@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      19
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      1 year ago

      There appears to be some confusion. Before anyone decides to post a viewpoint based upon a timeslot of their choosing, please search for yourselves when Israel was created and its boundaries. Then track the boundaries every 10 years and see where they are today. Then ask yourselves what you would do if you were pressed so far.

    • idoubledo@lemmy.sdf.org
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      33
      arrow-down
      45
      ·
      1 year ago

      Hamas’s missiles directed towards Israeli civilians and you choose to compare Israel to Russia. Your propoganda is showing…

      • Poteryashka@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        35
        arrow-down
        16
        ·
        1 year ago

        Do you consider Hamas the aggressor in the overall context of the Israel- Palestinian conflict?

          • gaael@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            18
            arrow-down
            9
            ·
            1 year ago

            Sometimes yes. I know very little about the Israelo-palestinian confilct (only what I read from news outlet) so I can’t say anything for sure here.

            But more generally, in history, there have been plenty of conflicts that were one side’s responsability: Ukraine’s invasion, WW2, colonie’s independance “wars”… IMO, when you defend yourself from an agression, you are not responsible for the conflict.

            In this case, I tend to agree with other commentors - Israel seems to have been increasingly oppressive and brutal at least in the past 2 decades, and you can only push people so far before they react.

            • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              5
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              How they react matters though. If Palestinians brutally murdered Israeli children, I think we’d all agree there’s absolutely no justification for that, no matter what rings wrongs Israel has committed.

              Palestine has every right to fight back against Israel, but not the civilians. When a country kills your civilians, you solve absolutely nothing by retaliation killing their civilians. Your enemy is their military and government.

              I firmly believe it is impossible to push someone to a point where their attacking innocent people can be justified.

            • idoubledo@lemmy.sdf.org
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              14
              arrow-down
              22
              ·
              1 year ago

              Israel has left Gaza in 2005 and only received missiles and terrorist attacks in return. Although no side is mother Teresa in this conflict, one is is definitely less mother Teresa than the other.

              • Poteryashka@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                9
                arrow-down
                4
                ·
                1 year ago

                Israel continues to expand their occupation of Palestinian land, though. Do you think Palestinians in Gaza have no stake in the well-being of other Palestinians in East Jerusalem and the West Bank?

                • Hiccup@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  6
                  arrow-down
                  10
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  They’re only bringing about their own ruin. Fuck, if they actually wanted to do something, then be human fucking beings and adults and come to solve agreement/ compromise. Israel isn’t going anywhere. They only stand to lose more and more by not coming to the table but instead being violent terrorists. They can keep killing for hundreds of years. They’ll end up with even less and accomplish nothing.

          • Serdan@lemm.ee
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            19
            arrow-down
            12
            ·
            1 year ago

            Colonizers are always responsible for any violence that follows.

            • homoludens@feddit.de
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              12
              arrow-down
              7
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              So if Native Americans fired rockets on e.g. Corpus Christi, Texas, they would have no responsibility at all for this action?

              I am not denying the responsibility of “the colonizers”, I think other people can also have some responsibility.

              • Serdan@lemm.ee
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                11
                arrow-down
                9
                ·
                1 year ago

                They’d be justified.

                The point is to not condemn the oppressed without regard for their oppression.

                • BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  6
                  arrow-down
                  2
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  So just to be clear, if a Native American went up to you, told you that he was going to shoot you because your ancestors stole his land, and then murdered you, you have no qualms about this?

                • homoludens@feddit.de
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  4
                  arrow-down
                  3
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  Where in this thread did someone “condemn the oppressed without regard for their oppression”?

                • Hiccup@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  4
                  arrow-down
                  6
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  They’re not being oppressed if they choose to live the why they do. At some point the drug addict needs to come to terms with the fact they are the ones causing their self harm. They could compromise and stop their killing/ bloodshed to build a peace but they don’t. Continuously attacking is one of the most dumbass moves they keep making. I’m out of sympathy and patience for these idiots. Keep crying but do nothing. Other parts of the Arab world have moved on and made peace with Israel. The Palestinians only have excuses and children to sacrifice at this point.

            • homoludens@feddit.de
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              And idoubledo did not say aggressor. So what do we gain by fixating on this word?

          • Poteryashka@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            Is it amoral? Yes, for sure 100%. But as a global community, we barely punish those who engage in this kind of tactic, and when we do, it’s for some kind of political theater. More Palestinian civilians will die in this conflict by a factor, if you’re going to criticize Hamas for this, I’d like to see the same standard applied to IDF.

            • WhiteHawk@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              I’m not saying either side is innocent, but you cannot compare this to the invasion of Ukraine since Ukraine does not deliberately target Russian civilians.

              • Poteryashka@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                Wow. I apologize for the confusion. I absolutely do not believe these two situations are comparable. My bad.

      • ???@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        7
        arrow-down
        7
        ·
        1 year ago

        Even if Hamas is wrong (and they are wrong to attack civilians), the comparison between Russia and Israel in terms of being an occupying power is still a totally valid comparison. I think this is what your point is missing.