I don’t think it should be banned, but it should probably be treated like gambling: strictly unavailable to minors. Minors are a huge market, so this should limit the appeal of this nonsense to games developers.
And it shouldn’t just be games, but any kind of software product should exclude kids from any form of in-game currency that can be purchased outside of the game.
Fuck them kids. The primary victims here are adults - those are the “whales” these bastards hunt. Kids don’t have a thousand dollars a month to blow on one stupid game, but hoo boy do a bunch of waifu-susceptible adults.
Nothing inside a video game should cost money. Games make you value arbitrary nonsense. That is what makes them games! There is no ethical form of charging real-world currency for that made-up value. Not even if it’s “just cosmetic,” or whatever other dismissive excuses people have for lootboxes with more steps. If all the game’s money comes from stupid fake hats, then the entire game exists solely to funnel people toward buying stupid fake hats.
We are talking about game developers - the foremost experts on guiding experiences, disguising shortcomings, and making objectively worthless things seem like amazing rewards. And they want a siphon attached to your wallet. They will make their products objectively less enjoyable to frustrate and cajole you into forking over unlimited sums of your actual money.
And we’re not about to shop our way out of this, before anyone glibly says ‘juuuust don’t buy it!’ like that’s a novel insight. I’m not-buying it as hard as I can. I’m warning others not to buy it. Guess what? It’s still swallowing the entire industry. This abuse is the dominant strategy. It costs next to nothing, it risks next to nothing, and it turns a trickle of content in an avalanche of money. So of course it’s in $60, $70, $90 games now. It’s in every genre, at every price point. It’s in single-player titles. All excuses have been disproven. It’s just plain greed, and it’s infecting everything.
Only legislation will fix this. If we allow this to continue - there will be nothing else.
I hesitate to call adults “victims” here since they are completely responsible for their decisions. But that’s not the point at all.
Kids are enablers here. Whales only exist because there’s someone to show off to. These big MTX games need a lot of nonpaying customers to stroke the egos of their whales. If kids can’t play games with MTX, the whales have far fewer people to show off to.
Kids are also a huge market, so companies would still want to court them, so those of us who don’t want MTX will have a good selection to choose from because games companies will continue to cater to them.
Psychologically exploiting people for unlimited sums of money sounds pretty victim-y. We regulate all manner of demonstrably irrational behavior - like your own example, gambling. I have zero patience for the libertarian argument that nothing short of a gun to your head can be wrong.
You could get exactly what you want - no kids in any of these games - and the problem would not change, at all.
Trying to convince people to do something that’s not in their interest isn’t a crime, that’s marketing.
gambling
Gambling is regulated, but only to the point of ensuring the game is fair, as in the customer understands the terms of the game as well as their risks. People aren’t prevented from gambling, and institutions aren’t prevented from marketing their games.
The same should be true in this case. People should understand the chances of getting something good from a loot box or whatever, as well as understand that the digital things they buy only exist for as long as the game is supported (or some other window of time).
Children cannot consent, so they cannot engage in gambling. That’s why it’s illegal, and also why that should extend to digital purchases.
I have zero patience
And I have zero patience for “the government knows best” type arguments.
I should be allowed to do pretty much anything that doesn’t negatively impact others, and that includes making stupid decisions. However, that only applies to adults, children can’t consent, so they should absolutely be prevented from doing things that could harm them.
That’s the most erudite “you just don’t like it!” I’ve seen so far, but it’s still dismissive horseshit.
Understanding cannot help. This is active, weaponized, evolving manipulation. Businesses are taking people’s money for things with zero value. That is a scam. It doesn’t have customers, it has victims.
All appearance of value is made-up by the people taking your money.
This is ruining an entire entertainment industry. It affects all of us! Video games as a product are being threatened by this bottomless pit. A sign saying “do not plummet if you’re under eighteen” is aggressively failing to solve the problem.
No, the value is in the experience, and that can vary from person to person. Having a digital item that others don’t absolutely has value for those that buy it.
It’s not a scam if they’re getting exactly what was advertised. If I buy a cosmetic item, I’m not getting scammed unless I don’t get that cosmetic item. If I get a loot box with a 1% chance of something good, I’m not getting scammed if I don’t get it unless the actual chance is lower than 1%. If I’m getting exactly what was advertised and it’s a consensual transaction, it’s not a scam, but it could absolutely be a stupid purchase.
This is ruining an entire entertainment industry. It affects all of us!
I agree, but just because the majority does something stupid doesn’t mean it should be illegal, it just means the majority is stupid and we probably need to improve our education system.
I get it, it really sucks, but banning something you don’t like is a form of tyranny since you’re essentially saying “this lifestyle choice is invalid.” Perhaps there can also be some controls against dark patterns to limit manipulation (i.e. would a reasonable person understand the risks, know how to avoid it, etc), but you should be allowed to make stupid choices.
I don’t gamble or play predatory games (except MtG: Arena, but I’m F2P because screw MTX). It’s really not hard to resist, so I don’t think it rises to the level of needing to be banned. There should probably be some changes, and starting by banning those games for minors is a good start.
Hey look, the red flag for any discussion of systemic issues, guess we’re done here. Blame the victims and cross your fingers that the as-yet-unborn generation can be saved from this thing that’s affecting the hell out of people right now and didn’t really exist a decade ago. Why would government do anything about that?
something you don’t liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiike
Fucking hate everyone who reduces anything to this infuriating garbage. This is uncivil behavior - this is a personal attack - this is trolling. Telling someone where to shove it would not be.
Perhaps there can also be some controls against dark patterns to limit manipulation
I’m not blaming victims, I’m saying there aren’t any victims because they made a conscious choice knowing exactly what they’re buying. You can’t just call yourself a victim when you do something stupid if there was no deceit in what you’re getting.
hypocrite
How so? Dark patterns manipulate what you think you’re getting, or what you need to do in order to get what you want.
For example, I’ve seen crap like a window popping up that says, “Buy gems to play more! $5 for 10, $8 for 20, or $15 50!” with no cancel, close, etc bottom. However, if you click outside the window, it disappears and you can play the game like you have been. That’s a clear example of a dark pattern that’s implying strongly that you need to pay to continue playing, and that should be illegal.
But if the transaction is clear (spend $X to get Y), and you get exactly what’s advertised, I don’t see that as something that should be banned. It shouldn’t be illegal to market bad products for bad prices, it should only be illegal to misrepresent the product.
That said, the standard for minors should be much higher, and should disallow any chance-based purchase or anything related to addictive behavior. But that standard shouldn’t apply to adults of sound mind (i.e. people without a mental disability that impacts ability to consent, such as being slow).
I don’t think it should be banned, but it should probably be treated like gambling: strictly unavailable to minors. Minors are a huge market, so this should limit the appeal of this nonsense to games developers.
And it shouldn’t just be games, but any kind of software product should exclude kids from any form of in-game currency that can be purchased outside of the game.
Fuck them kids. The primary victims here are adults - those are the “whales” these bastards hunt. Kids don’t have a thousand dollars a month to blow on one stupid game, but hoo boy do a bunch of waifu-susceptible adults.
Nothing inside a video game should cost money. Games make you value arbitrary nonsense. That is what makes them games! There is no ethical form of charging real-world currency for that made-up value. Not even if it’s “just cosmetic,” or whatever other dismissive excuses people have for lootboxes with more steps. If all the game’s money comes from stupid fake hats, then the entire game exists solely to funnel people toward buying stupid fake hats.
We are talking about game developers - the foremost experts on guiding experiences, disguising shortcomings, and making objectively worthless things seem like amazing rewards. And they want a siphon attached to your wallet. They will make their products objectively less enjoyable to frustrate and cajole you into forking over unlimited sums of your actual money.
And we’re not about to shop our way out of this, before anyone glibly says ‘juuuust don’t buy it!’ like that’s a novel insight. I’m not-buying it as hard as I can. I’m warning others not to buy it. Guess what? It’s still swallowing the entire industry. This abuse is the dominant strategy. It costs next to nothing, it risks next to nothing, and it turns a trickle of content in an avalanche of money. So of course it’s in $60, $70, $90 games now. It’s in every genre, at every price point. It’s in single-player titles. All excuses have been disproven. It’s just plain greed, and it’s infecting everything.
Only legislation will fix this. If we allow this to continue - there will be nothing else.
I hesitate to call adults “victims” here since they are completely responsible for their decisions. But that’s not the point at all.
Kids are enablers here. Whales only exist because there’s someone to show off to. These big MTX games need a lot of nonpaying customers to stroke the egos of their whales. If kids can’t play games with MTX, the whales have far fewer people to show off to.
Kids are also a huge market, so companies would still want to court them, so those of us who don’t want MTX will have a good selection to choose from because games companies will continue to cater to them.
Psychologically exploiting people for unlimited sums of money sounds pretty victim-y. We regulate all manner of demonstrably irrational behavior - like your own example, gambling. I have zero patience for the libertarian argument that nothing short of a gun to your head can be wrong.
You could get exactly what you want - no kids in any of these games - and the problem would not change, at all.
Trying to convince people to do something that’s not in their interest isn’t a crime, that’s marketing.
Gambling is regulated, but only to the point of ensuring the game is fair, as in the customer understands the terms of the game as well as their risks. People aren’t prevented from gambling, and institutions aren’t prevented from marketing their games.
The same should be true in this case. People should understand the chances of getting something good from a loot box or whatever, as well as understand that the digital things they buy only exist for as long as the game is supported (or some other window of time).
Children cannot consent, so they cannot engage in gambling. That’s why it’s illegal, and also why that should extend to digital purchases.
And I have zero patience for “the government knows best” type arguments.
I should be allowed to do pretty much anything that doesn’t negatively impact others, and that includes making stupid decisions. However, that only applies to adults, children can’t consent, so they should absolutely be prevented from doing things that could harm them.
That’s the most erudite “you just don’t like it!” I’ve seen so far, but it’s still dismissive horseshit.
Understanding cannot help. This is active, weaponized, evolving manipulation. Businesses are taking people’s money for things with zero value. That is a scam. It doesn’t have customers, it has victims.
All appearance of value is made-up by the people taking your money.
This is ruining an entire entertainment industry. It affects all of us! Video games as a product are being threatened by this bottomless pit. A sign saying “do not plummet if you’re under eighteen” is aggressively failing to solve the problem.
No, the value is in the experience, and that can vary from person to person. Having a digital item that others don’t absolutely has value for those that buy it.
It’s not a scam if they’re getting exactly what was advertised. If I buy a cosmetic item, I’m not getting scammed unless I don’t get that cosmetic item. If I get a loot box with a 1% chance of something good, I’m not getting scammed if I don’t get it unless the actual chance is lower than 1%. If I’m getting exactly what was advertised and it’s a consensual transaction, it’s not a scam, but it could absolutely be a stupid purchase.
I agree, but just because the majority does something stupid doesn’t mean it should be illegal, it just means the majority is stupid and we probably need to improve our education system.
I get it, it really sucks, but banning something you don’t like is a form of tyranny since you’re essentially saying “this lifestyle choice is invalid.” Perhaps there can also be some controls against dark patterns to limit manipulation (i.e. would a reasonable person understand the risks, know how to avoid it, etc), but you should be allowed to make stupid choices.
I don’t gamble or play predatory games (except MtG: Arena, but I’m F2P because screw MTX). It’s really not hard to resist, so I don’t think it rises to the level of needing to be banned. There should probably be some changes, and starting by banning those games for minors is a good start.
Hey look, the red flag for any discussion of systemic issues, guess we’re done here. Blame the victims and cross your fingers that the as-yet-unborn generation can be saved from this thing that’s affecting the hell out of people right now and didn’t really exist a decade ago. Why would government do anything about that?
Fucking hate everyone who reduces anything to this infuriating garbage. This is uncivil behavior - this is a personal attack - this is trolling. Telling someone where to shove it would not be.
… hypocrite.
I’m not blaming victims, I’m saying there aren’t any victims because they made a conscious choice knowing exactly what they’re buying. You can’t just call yourself a victim when you do something stupid if there was no deceit in what you’re getting.
How so? Dark patterns manipulate what you think you’re getting, or what you need to do in order to get what you want.
For example, I’ve seen crap like a window popping up that says, “Buy gems to play more! $5 for 10, $8 for 20, or $15 50!” with no cancel, close, etc bottom. However, if you click outside the window, it disappears and you can play the game like you have been. That’s a clear example of a dark pattern that’s implying strongly that you need to pay to continue playing, and that should be illegal.
But if the transaction is clear (spend $X to get Y), and you get exactly what’s advertised, I don’t see that as something that should be banned. It shouldn’t be illegal to market bad products for bad prices, it should only be illegal to misrepresent the product.
That said, the standard for minors should be much higher, and should disallow any chance-based purchase or anything related to addictive behavior. But that standard shouldn’t apply to adults of sound mind (i.e. people without a mental disability that impacts ability to consent, such as being slow).
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