Check out the Gender Dysphoria Bible online; it’s a very good resource. Or read the WPATH-8 recommendations if you want the actual scientific/medical consensus.
In my experience as a trans person with gnc tendencies, you cannot simply wish away gender for everybody. There are people who don’t really feel any attachment (“agender” people). But most people do, deeply.
As an aside, starting a conversation by gatekeeping how people in a group you don’t belong to are allowed to feel, then gatekeeping how they are allowed to express themselves, is generally not a way to get them to open up to you.
The equivalent for me might be “as a white person, in my opinion there are only two valid reasons for a black person to have their hair in locks (a and b), any black people who want to respectfully explain anything about that to me are free to do so…”
If I open the conversation like that, I’m not likely to gather much new information.
I think that may be why you’re not getting the polite interactions you’re looking for, your post was not particularly friendly.
That’s fair, I need to take more care for how I phrase things. I appreciate the resource, but I’ve found that I don’t learn as well from textbook esque resources than I do from having conversations. I’m very confident that I am agender, so I suppose my experiences are reflected in my beliefs. But it seems very odd to me that more people within the LGBT community don’t agree with my line of reasoning, as it’s a more freedom based approach to the same goal of liberation from gender roles.
As far as the gatekeeping goes, I explained why I phrased it that way in another comment, but I do agree it was a poor choice.
And so far no one has actually attacked me, so I consider these discussions to be fairly successful, although I wish people wouldn’t downvote that other user as that stifles their point of view.
That’s the issue I have generally - is the automatic assumption people take that I am attacking them rather than trying to have a conversation so that I can educate myself on the topic and understand better.
I’m just gonna quote something else you said in this thread
You were assigned a sex at birth. If you have female genitals, you’re a female. That’s what gets assigned at birth. Doctors don’t give a shit about gender, and do not assign it when you are born. Gender is a societal construct, and something you adopt as you age/learn.
I didn’t read this in reply to me and think “oh, here is somebody who is attempting to educate themselves and understand me better.”
If your goal is to get people to share some of their most intimate and complex personal experiences with you, perhaps there are more effective communication styles?
Can you see how it might come off as somebody who believes they already know the topic and is trying to educate other people?
I’m correcting a misconception that person had about their experiences. Doctors do not give you a gender. They assign a sex (M or F) for the purposes of identification.
Basically, what did the doctors guess your gender was going to be based on your genitals.
Is wholly untrue and counterproductive to tell people. I’ve been told many times that your gender is not your sex, and they are two separate things. To incorrectly espouse that doctors assign gender and not sex upon birth, is frankly, appalling. This is not something that is open for opinion, it is a statement of fact. And an incorrect statement of fact is either ignorance, or malice.
People are still throwing “gender reveal” parties for their unborn infants. If you think doctors in the real world aren’t concerned with fitting children into sex-assigned gender norms, you experienced a different medical system from me.
Is it right that doctors and parents, in general, guess gender based on genitalia? Is it good? I think we agree that it isn’t.
Our close family friend is an OBGYN, and I assure you, doctors in the real world are not concerned whatsoever at the point of birth. It’s something I can confidently say as we’ve had discussions about it in the past.
When a doctor delivers a child, the only thing on their mind is that the child is delivered alive and healthy. The paperwork is just part of the job, and at that point in the child’s life it’s really only about identification of the individual. Is it right that parents guess the gender based on genitalia? I’d say it is; because in most instances, it’s correct. I think the problem stems from the point at which you see signs that it isn’t correct. I think most individuals keep barreling ahead, at that point - forcing that particular gender identity on their child. Which I can agree - is wrong; and something I am guilty of with my child earlier on.
Check out the Gender Dysphoria Bible online; it’s a very good resource. Or read the WPATH-8 recommendations if you want the actual scientific/medical consensus.
In my experience as a trans person with gnc tendencies, you cannot simply wish away gender for everybody. There are people who don’t really feel any attachment (“agender” people). But most people do, deeply.
As an aside, starting a conversation by gatekeeping how people in a group you don’t belong to are allowed to feel, then gatekeeping how they are allowed to express themselves, is generally not a way to get them to open up to you.
The equivalent for me might be “as a white person, in my opinion there are only two valid reasons for a black person to have their hair in locks (a and b), any black people who want to respectfully explain anything about that to me are free to do so…”
If I open the conversation like that, I’m not likely to gather much new information.
I think that may be why you’re not getting the polite interactions you’re looking for, your post was not particularly friendly.
That’s fair, I need to take more care for how I phrase things. I appreciate the resource, but I’ve found that I don’t learn as well from textbook esque resources than I do from having conversations. I’m very confident that I am agender, so I suppose my experiences are reflected in my beliefs. But it seems very odd to me that more people within the LGBT community don’t agree with my line of reasoning, as it’s a more freedom based approach to the same goal of liberation from gender roles.
As far as the gatekeeping goes, I explained why I phrased it that way in another comment, but I do agree it was a poor choice.
And so far no one has actually attacked me, so I consider these discussions to be fairly successful, although I wish people wouldn’t downvote that other user as that stifles their point of view.
That’s the issue I have generally - is the automatic assumption people take that I am attacking them rather than trying to have a conversation so that I can educate myself on the topic and understand better.
I’m just gonna quote something else you said in this thread
I didn’t read this in reply to me and think “oh, here is somebody who is attempting to educate themselves and understand me better.”
If your goal is to get people to share some of their most intimate and complex personal experiences with you, perhaps there are more effective communication styles?
Can you see how it might come off as somebody who believes they already know the topic and is trying to educate other people?
I’m correcting a misconception that person had about their experiences. Doctors do not give you a gender. They assign a sex (M or F) for the purposes of identification.
Is wholly untrue and counterproductive to tell people. I’ve been told many times that your gender is not your sex, and they are two separate things. To incorrectly espouse that doctors assign gender and not sex upon birth, is frankly, appalling. This is not something that is open for opinion, it is a statement of fact. And an incorrect statement of fact is either ignorance, or malice.
People are still throwing “gender reveal” parties for their unborn infants. If you think doctors in the real world aren’t concerned with fitting children into sex-assigned gender norms, you experienced a different medical system from me.
Is it right that doctors and parents, in general, guess gender based on genitalia? Is it good? I think we agree that it isn’t.
But it is the case.
Tbf I suspect society has called them gender reveal parties because sex (reveal) parties can be miscommunicative in an entirely different way.
“It’s got a dooong” also has a different vibe from “it’s a boooy”.
Idk, no horse in this race. Those parties are stupid anyways.
Our close family friend is an OBGYN, and I assure you, doctors in the real world are not concerned whatsoever at the point of birth. It’s something I can confidently say as we’ve had discussions about it in the past.
When a doctor delivers a child, the only thing on their mind is that the child is delivered alive and healthy. The paperwork is just part of the job, and at that point in the child’s life it’s really only about identification of the individual. Is it right that parents guess the gender based on genitalia? I’d say it is; because in most instances, it’s correct. I think the problem stems from the point at which you see signs that it isn’t correct. I think most individuals keep barreling ahead, at that point - forcing that particular gender identity on their child. Which I can agree - is wrong; and something I am guilty of with my child earlier on.