This is a continuation from @[email protected] 's comment about the Cyberdrop ebike trailer, on the practicalities of bigger or heavier ebike configurations. But I’m open to discussion on the same challenges presented to e-scooters, e-longboards, or anything else under the micromobility banner, as size and weight eventually implicate practicality for all modes.

Ebikes have enabled some very creative builds, with an ever-broadening variety to meet diverse rider needs. Borrowing from the familiarity of acoustic bicycles, most of these ebikes can be accommodated in the same facilities, so not as much thought was previously needed about ebike compatibility with its surroundings. But with some of these larger, heavier, more powerful machines, this is going to quickly become a problem; we’ve already seen conflicts with other two-wheeled users and pedestrians. This strife costs goodwill with the public at large, and may invite onerous governmental regulations.

In my mind, the approach to analyzing this is to identify which ebike parameters result in reduced real-world practicality under certain scenarios. The idea here is that all parameters must come with some tradeoffs, and sometimes those become really apparent under certain circumstances. I posit this cursory list of parameters, as a starting point:

  • length
  • width
  • weight
  • height
  • cargo capacity (volume)
  • power
  • speed
  • minimum turning radii
  • parking
  • number of wheels
  • number of riders

As for scenarios, here are a few:

  • (A) Commuting into/through downtown on 2 or 4-lane roads with paved, 2-3 ft bike lanes, possibly with a curb-separated, two-way bike path adjacent to the road, 6 ft wide in total
  • (B) Leisure stroll on a suburban, winding 10 ft multi-use path paralleling a creek, with 8 ft of paved surface width and 2 ft for dirt running track, adjacent to sensitive wetlands separated by rope fencing
  • © Intercity jaunt orbiting around a metro area, from one suburb to another through rural/agricultural areas, via speedy, straight 2-lane country roads with intermittent 2-5 ft paved shoulders, full of tar snakes.
  • (D) Adventure run up and down a hilly Forest Service road, with alternating between rough gravel pavement and dirt, searching for a camp site overlooking the valley/lake/metro. No other traffic, homes, or people for many kilometers.

With all that said, I think the single most-impactful parameter of an ebike that reduces practicality the most is length. My reasoning is that length reduces an ebike’s ability to navigate horizontal curves, and vertical curves (aka hills). In the scenarios above, something that is over 3 meters (10 ft) long would be outrageous in the city, scorned in the suburbs, unmanoeuverable on county roads, and would bottom-out in the sticks.

In scenarios C and D, it’s possible to be long and narrow, or long and tall (for ground clearance), but taxing my imagination, I can only think of two very-specific applications that would meet this: a canoe hauler, and a “glass truck” ebike to move building material vertically.

It gets worse when length is paired with some of the other parameters, like length and width (see Cyberdrop earlier) or length and height (ebike billboard?) or length and riders (rigid ebike bus?). Don’t get me wrong, these are interesting ideas, and I’d pay good money to see a length-and-weight ebike troika hauling the Space Shuttle Endeavor, but there would be too many compromises for regular use.

Moving to the next item, width is another critical parameter, because of all the width restrictions that presently exist. Older cities here in California with on-street bike lanes are lucky to have 3 ft, often narrowing to 2 ft at intersections, if they even continue through the intersection at all. The Vehicle Code here removes the requirement for cyclists to keep rightward if road conditions change, but since the width of a bicycle or ebike is not defined in law, there’s some ambiguity as to how an overly-wide ebike would navigate on-street. The situation is worse on off-street paths, where wide ebikes would essentially become rolling roadblocks, especially at curves or in narrow passages like underpasses.

As for weight, it’s not too impactful on its own but combined with speed or width, such an ebike could become a hazard to other road users or to the rider very quickly. A UPS cargo ebike operating up to 25 kph (15 mph) in scenario A is reasonable enough, but hauling a sofa in Scenario B would raise a few eyebrows and cause parents to hold their children in a place where they should feel safe from being run down.

As a closing thought before this gets too long, it’s notable that automobiles have the same set of challenges, as exemplified at the largest and heaviest of commonplace automotive endeavors: RVs. RV trailers are at the very edge of what can be operated with a normal Class C driving license in California. 10,000 lbs GVWR trailer behind a minimum 4,000 lbs GVWR tow vehicle, often attached with fifth-wheel coupler, yielding overall lengths up to 40 ft. These behemoths simply cannot be stored or driven in the city, and even in many sprawling suburbs, still look deeply out of place when parked curb-side, often brushing up against branches due to their height or width.

If ebikes or e-trailers reach a relatively-similar state of big-ness as RVs, then we’ll know we have erred. Let me know what y’all think about this topic.

    • litchraleeOP
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      11 months ago

      Some of the non-electric bakfiets are pushing 60 kg (132 lbs) or more. But I suppose a bakfiet isn’t necessarily micromobility to everyone.

  • themoonisacheese
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    11 months ago

    I eskate everywhere with a meepo v3. Since it’s not a bike I can’t really lock it, so I have to carry it inside everywhere. I also can’t make it simply roll like I could a bike.

    It is this close to being not actually very portable. I did buy a mini V5 with a carry bag so hopefully that’ll be better but I’m not holding my breath.

    • litchraleeOP
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      11 months ago

      Is the lack of portability from the weight or the shape of the e-skateboard?

      • themoonisacheese
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        11 months ago

        Both, but really the weight. It’s like 8 kg, plus the helmet, all on one hand which you can’t use to do anything else while you’re carrying it.

  • JohnnyH842@lemmy.world
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    11 months ago

    I just want to say that I really appreciate how much effort you put into this post when all I wanted to do was shake my pitchfork. Thanks for starting an actual discussion!

    • litchraleeOP
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      11 months ago

      Thank you for providing the inspiration for writing this out! When I read your comment, I already had some thought jiggling in my head about where ebikes and bikes diverge, so it wasn’t too unwieldy to remachine those thoughts into the tradeoffs of each e ike parameter.

      I think it’s also important that both riders and builders (both DIY and commercial) of ebikes keep in mind what impacts they have for the surroundings and other people. It’s not remotely near that of an automobile, but it’s still something to be mindful of. It’s now fairly conclusive that safety awareness campaigns towards auto drivers don’t meaningfully improve safety outcomes, but I’m hopeful that new riders of ebikes will adopt good habits from the get-go.

  • FartsWithAnAccent@lemmy.worldM
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    11 months ago

    IDK, maybe somewhere between 600-1,200 lbs? It’s important to have brakes rated for the load you’re carrying though.

    • litchraleeOP
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      11 months ago

      You’re absolutely right that brakes need to match the load. This is an area where legislative clarity would be useful, as many states did not update their bicycle brake requirements when introducing ebikes as a category. So far as I’m aware, a bicycle in California only needs a single brake, capable of skidding the tire on dry, level road. There’s no test for braking distance, standard test speed, or adjustments for weight.

      Compare this to the automobile towing laws in CVC 26454, which specify all of those parameters, since runaway trailers would be exceptional dangerous to everyone. Whereas acoustic bikes being misused tend to injure only their rider, certain ebike parameters can pose risks to the public.

      I can sort-of imagine a sliding scale, legal speed limit that depends on present weight, towing or not, maybe starting at 200 kg (440 lbs). Although this would only be useful after-the-fact, to assess traffic infractions or in a negligence lawsuit. Such a rule gives clear guidance to manufacturers and tinkerers that want to run fast, or run heavy, but not both.

    • DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz
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      11 months ago

      600lbs (and up) just can’t be considered micromobility at all (IMO). There’s nothing small or micro about a setup that weighs >=600lbs. A big motorcycle clocks in well below 600lbs and they’re certainly not micro mobility by any means.

      • FartsWithAnAccent@lemmy.worldM
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        11 months ago

        I didn’t mean the bike itself would weigh 600 lbs, just that it could carry that much. Also, are you including the rider’s weight in that total?

        • DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz
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          11 months ago

          Yeah that kind of towing capability absolutely also disqualifies as micro mobility IMO.

          No I’m not counting driver weight, the size of the driver doesn’t really mean anything in regards to the definition. A regular bike isn’t any less micro mobility just because there’s a 300lbs rider on it compared to a 120lbs rider. But if you’re putting a trailer with 600lbs of capacity behind it, it kind of stops being micro as it starts taking up a lot of space.

          • FartsWithAnAccent@lemmy.worldM
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            11 months ago

            You can tow a surprising amount of weigh in even an unpowered bicycle.

            If you’re not counting rider weight then yeah, a limit a little under 600 lbs seems pretty reasonable for cargo bikes.

            Could have it so special rules kick in past a certain weight limit like you can only ride in the street, brakes must be rated to a certain limit, etc.