At the same time, those towns are hella compact, such that 90+% of residents can walk to pretty much any retailer or store or other resource within 15-20 minutes. Yes, some people (farmers) live outside of town and there are some American-style housing in clumps outside of the town, but everyone mostly lives in tight clusters.
And even the tiny towns well away from other larger towns have busses that move people between towns on a fairly regular If infrequent basis (15-20 minutes apart). Only the larger population centres can afford to have public transport that comes every 5 minutes or so.
You also have to understand that in North America, a “significant separation between towns” is something like 100+km. In Germany, that term qualifies with as little as a 10km distance. It’s rare to find any population centre that is more than 20km away from its nearest neighbour.
fairly regular If infrequent basis (15-20 minutes apart)
lol that’s the frequency that the busses and trains near me operate during peak commute times. I finally broke down and bought a car. I’m American if you couldn’t tell…
Oof, in my city there’s one route that’s 40 minutes, and the rest are an hour+
If I lived in a different spot or had kids or anything, it’d be impossible for me to take the bus. I don’t blame people who don’t use it. It’s mostly used by homeless people.
Yeah, that’s what really sucks. I grew up in a similar place, and for me it’s a thousand times better to live in a place with transit (and, y’know, sidewalks…), regardless of how little funding it gets. Sorry :(
At the same time, those towns are hella compact, such that 90+% of residents can walk to pretty much any retailer or store or other resource within 15-20 minutes.
Pandemics are a thing
Families wanting nature and places in their backyard that kids can play
I think 15 minute cities are great if you have everything to back it up. All of the grocery stores and mini-box stores left downtown Seattle because a lot are work from home now. If people can work and live anywhere they want, they want nature. You need to have transit for that.
Edit: I’m trying to understand the downvotes, is this not being taught in urban planning? Is it just developers wanting to rent their spaces because their leases are closing out? Or is it naive people wanting to force their ideas without realizing humans are going to make decisions in the process as well? Super interesting thread.
One of the mistakes for which j think you are down voted is thinking you can’t have nature nearby if you live in a more dense cluster. Quite the opposite is true. People living in apartments 4 or 5 high leaves a lot more open space available for parks, playgrounds, etc. Suburban sprawl looking for “wanting nature and places in their backyard that kids can play” is exactly what destroys this space in cities in the first place…
As an American, I worked in Tokyo for a while and I would 100% raise a family in any sized walkable town or city with mass transit. You could walk to several stores or restaurants, the train station, the river, or several parks within 10 minutes.
As an American, I worked in Tokyo for a while and I would 100% raise a family in any sized walkable town or city with mass transit.
They also have along with amazing transit, grocery stores within walking distance, like New York. Also, your preferences aren’t everyone’s preferences. Again, if you have the infrastructure to back it up, go for it. If you don’t, work towards this, but take into account all of the possible problems with it. No one was wishing they lived in the city during the beginning of the pandemic.
I think 15 minute cities are great if you have everything to back it up.
This is just a tautology
I think water is great if it has two hydrogens for each oxygen
Even if you have most things nearby for day-to-day life but still need to travel an hour for any of: school, work, daycare, groceries, or even common leisure or entertainment activities, “green spaces”… Then that ain’t a 15 minute city.
Additionally, transit is absolutely included in 15 minute city concept - whether it be pedestrian, biking, bus, train, mixed-mode trips, cars*… It’s a holistic concept so of course these are all under the umbrella.
* yes even cars can be included, but in order for the others to be successful they are general de-prioritized in this model.
Edit: I’ll also add that I see “15-minute city” is an aspirational goal, and anything that moves us closer towards it tends to be good for the people that live there - and even if not fully achieved in a particular place, this type of hand-wringing about specific aspects in order to disregard the whole concept seems disingenuous at best.
If people can work and live anywhere they want, they want nature.
This is a huge generalization and you seem to imply that would mean populations spreading out into semi rural areas. Studies have shown people are happier with access to nature, but you seem to forget green spaces, parks and tree lined streets exist. I loved living in a walkable city and absolutely would again if I could afford it.
Studies have shown people are happier with access to nature, but you seem to forget green spaces, parks and tree lined streets exist. I loved living in a walkable city and absolutely would again if I could afford it.
I know parks exist, that doesn’t mean the city is right for everyone. I’m glad you would love a great walkable city, I think they’re great too. Do you think that people would enjoy raising a family in a studio apartment?
You don’t think that 2+ bedroom apartments exist in the city?
If you’re about to say “oh of course but they’re unaffordable” then you admit that so many people want to live or have a family in a city that demand outstrips supply. If no one wanted to live in the city housing would be cheaper there. The lack of housing supply is another discussion entirely but put simply, zoning laws in the US are pretty stupid and plenty of other developed countries don’t have that problem.
You don’t think that 2+ bedroom apartments exist in the city?
If you’re about to say “oh of course but they’re unaffordable” then you admit that so many people want to live or have a family in a city that demand outstrips supply. If no one wanted to live in the city housing would be cheaper there. The lack of housing supply is another discussion entirely but put simply, zoning laws in the US are pretty stupid and plenty of other developed countries don’t have that problem.
I think the downvotes are the blanket statement of “if people can work and live anywhere they want, they want nature”
I like nature just fine and have worked from home for most of the past ten years but you couldn’t get me to give up the city for the country and I’ve had the option for a long time. I moved from Atlanta to Seattle because i preferred the opposite of what you said people want.
Let’s get something straight, I love the city. I love and live in Seattle and love it too, even with all of its quirks. I think a walkable city is great. It is not for everyone and people have to figure that out.
They have micro apartments that were a nightmare before the pandemic, it was the best that some could afford. Granted, there was a lot of rent price fixing going on as well, not sure if that’s being fixed or not. Would you want to raise your kids in a dorm room or a studio apartment?
Right, so let’s say we do it, we have 15 minute cities everywhere and I want to see my aunt in Arizona, but I live in Seattle. Now what? How do you feel about motorcycles, electric bikes and scooters? Let’s say that I hate Amazon and want to keep small businesses in business, we don’t have that type of small business in my 15 minute city, do I bike 3 hours to the next one? Are you going to remake the economy?
You guys have to be trolling me, right? This is my last comment because I suspect you guys are.
I think 15 minute cities are great, people should accommodate the people that want them
The 15 minute cities won’t solve the corporation problem of hogging all of the resources and it seems like a distraction from them being the problem.
You need transit, not everyone is 18-24, naive, and healthy with no kids
we have 15 minute cities everywhere and I want to see my aunt in Arizona, but I live in Seattle. Now what?
Take a plane, a train, or an automobile!
How do you feel about motorcycles, electric bikes and scooters?
I’m fine with them. I’d prefer that they stayed off sidewalks, but that’s my only real thought on them.
Let’s say that I hate Amazon and want to keep small businesses in business, we don’t have that type of small business in my 15 minute city, do I bike 3 hours to the next one?
If you want to. I think a lot of the other commenters suggested using public transit. You could also drive. Maybe they do mail order?
You need transit, not everyone is 18-24, naive, and healthy with no kids
All of the comments I’ve read haven’t mentioned transit, or have been transit positive.
It sounds like you’re being deliberately obtuse, but just in case you’re genuine…
Cars simply weren’t a thing people had general access to before the 1950s and yet the economy and people did just fine. The huge majority of “getting around” that people need to do are going to work, going to school, shopping and entertainment. Do you really feel like having a 10 minute walk to work would be so hellish and dystopian? Wouldn’t it be nice if your kids could ask to go play in the park and they could just go 5 minutes down the road without you having to drive them? You could be a regular at that nice taco place down on the corner. You could buy more fresh produce if the grocery was across the street. If you do need to go to another city or go a farther distance, are you under the impression that people want to eliminate cars entirely? Cars are an amazing invention but the issue is over reliance, not their existence. By all means, drive or take a train an hour or two out of town but not everyone wants to have to drive to take their kids to school, sporting events or friends houses, or just to go grab food somewhere, or to see a movie, or all the other mundane daily trips that are part of every day life.
Wish we had more public green spaces that everyone can share and are easy to access via public transit/on foot/by bike. Instead we get endless parking lots.
I can’t really complain about that too much, Seattle has a lake right next to the downtown and the sound on the other side. We also have a ton of parks. When I lived in the Chicago area though, holy crap I craved nature. You had to drive for hours to get much of anything. Our back yard was all we had.
Only thing urban planners seem to understand is if you make driving more difficult somehow this magically makes mass transit better instead of people just refusing to go to that area. Also that poor people don’t have a right to park their car.
At the same time, those towns are hella compact, such that 90+% of residents can walk to pretty much any retailer or store or other resource within 15-20 minutes. Yes, some people (farmers) live outside of town and there are some American-style housing in clumps outside of the town, but everyone mostly lives in tight clusters.
And even the tiny towns well away from other larger towns have busses that move people between towns on a fairly regular If infrequent basis (15-20 minutes apart). Only the larger population centres can afford to have public transport that comes every 5 minutes or so.
You also have to understand that in North America, a “significant separation between towns” is something like 100+km. In Germany, that term qualifies with as little as a 10km distance. It’s rare to find any population centre that is more than 20km away from its nearest neighbour.
lol that’s the frequency that the busses and trains near me operate during peak commute times. I finally broke down and bought a car. I’m American if you couldn’t tell…
Oof, in my city there’s one route that’s 40 minutes, and the rest are an hour+
If I lived in a different spot or had kids or anything, it’d be impossible for me to take the bus. I don’t blame people who don’t use it. It’s mostly used by homeless people.
It’s getting better though, slowly but surely :)
It doesn’t even exist near me and the roads aren’t even walkable. I’m in a relatively big city but on the edge of the suburbs.
Yeah, that’s what really sucks. I grew up in a similar place, and for me it’s a thousand times better to live in a place with transit (and, y’know, sidewalks…), regardless of how little funding it gets. Sorry :(
I think 15 minute cities are great if you have everything to back it up. All of the grocery stores and mini-box stores left downtown Seattle because a lot are work from home now. If people can work and live anywhere they want, they want nature. You need to have transit for that.
Edit: I’m trying to understand the downvotes, is this not being taught in urban planning? Is it just developers wanting to rent their spaces because their leases are closing out? Or is it naive people wanting to force their ideas without realizing humans are going to make decisions in the process as well? Super interesting thread.
One of the mistakes for which j think you are down voted is thinking you can’t have nature nearby if you live in a more dense cluster. Quite the opposite is true. People living in apartments 4 or 5 high leaves a lot more open space available for parks, playgrounds, etc. Suburban sprawl looking for “wanting nature and places in their backyard that kids can play” is exactly what destroys this space in cities in the first place…
As an American, I worked in Tokyo for a while and I would 100% raise a family in any sized walkable town or city with mass transit. You could walk to several stores or restaurants, the train station, the river, or several parks within 10 minutes.
Can do that on my block. I often walk a few minutes to the train station.
They also have along with amazing transit, grocery stores within walking distance, like New York. Also, your preferences aren’t everyone’s preferences. Again, if you have the infrastructure to back it up, go for it. If you don’t, work towards this, but take into account all of the possible problems with it. No one was wishing they lived in the city during the beginning of the pandemic.
This is just a tautology
I think water is great if it has two hydrogens for each oxygen
Even if you have most things nearby for day-to-day life but still need to travel an hour for any of: school, work, daycare, groceries, or even common leisure or entertainment activities, “green spaces”… Then that ain’t a 15 minute city.
Additionally, transit is absolutely included in 15 minute city concept - whether it be pedestrian, biking, bus, train, mixed-mode trips, cars*… It’s a holistic concept so of course these are all under the umbrella.
* yes even cars can be included, but in order for the others to be successful they are general de-prioritized in this model.
Edit: I’ll also add that I see “15-minute city” is an aspirational goal, and anything that moves us closer towards it tends to be good for the people that live there - and even if not fully achieved in a particular place, this type of hand-wringing about specific aspects in order to disregard the whole concept seems disingenuous at best.
But oxygen is what gives us life.
I’m going to have two hydrogen and two oxygen, thank you very much.
Not for long, but enjoy it while it lasts!
This is a huge generalization and you seem to imply that would mean populations spreading out into semi rural areas. Studies have shown people are happier with access to nature, but you seem to forget green spaces, parks and tree lined streets exist. I loved living in a walkable city and absolutely would again if I could afford it.
I know parks exist, that doesn’t mean the city is right for everyone. I’m glad you would love a great walkable city, I think they’re great too. Do you think that people would enjoy raising a family in a studio apartment?
You don’t think that 2+ bedroom apartments exist in the city?
If you’re about to say “oh of course but they’re unaffordable” then you admit that so many people want to live or have a family in a city that demand outstrips supply. If no one wanted to live in the city housing would be cheaper there. The lack of housing supply is another discussion entirely but put simply, zoning laws in the US are pretty stupid and plenty of other developed countries don’t have that problem.
You don’t think that 2+ bedroom apartments exist in the city?
If you’re about to say “oh of course but they’re unaffordable” then you admit that so many people want to live or have a family in a city that demand outstrips supply. If no one wanted to live in the city housing would be cheaper there. The lack of housing supply is another discussion entirely but put simply, zoning laws in the US are pretty stupid and plenty of other developed countries don’t have that problem.
They’re unaffordable because of price fixing, but go on. https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2022/11/rent-a-capitol-hill-apartment-from-one-of-these-companies-you-may-have-rights-under-antitrust-laws-to-compensation-as-lawsuit-alleges-price-fixing-violations-in-seattle/
And if nobody was willing to pay those prices, would that be a profitable or effective strategy?
I think the downvotes are the blanket statement of “if people can work and live anywhere they want, they want nature”
I like nature just fine and have worked from home for most of the past ten years but you couldn’t get me to give up the city for the country and I’ve had the option for a long time. I moved from Atlanta to Seattle because i preferred the opposite of what you said people want.
Seattle has a shit ton of nature in the city though, and we’re also getting a decent transit. We have greenery crawling up the concrete everywhere.
Atlanta is called the city in the trees/forest, in comparison Seattle may as well be the concrete jungle
Let’s get something straight, I love the city. I love and live in Seattle and love it too, even with all of its quirks. I think a walkable city is great. It is not for everyone and people have to figure that out.
They have micro apartments that were a nightmare before the pandemic, it was the best that some could afford. Granted, there was a lot of rent price fixing going on as well, not sure if that’s being fixed or not. Would you want to raise your kids in a dorm room or a studio apartment?
Prospect Park is often called Brooklyn’s back yard.
The fifteen minute city is the infrastructure.
Right, so let’s say we do it, we have 15 minute cities everywhere and I want to see my aunt in Arizona, but I live in Seattle. Now what? How do you feel about motorcycles, electric bikes and scooters? Let’s say that I hate Amazon and want to keep small businesses in business, we don’t have that type of small business in my 15 minute city, do I bike 3 hours to the next one? Are you going to remake the economy?
You guys have to be trolling me, right? This is my last comment because I suspect you guys are.
Good luck!
Take a plane, a train, or an automobile!
I’m fine with them. I’d prefer that they stayed off sidewalks, but that’s my only real thought on them.
If you want to. I think a lot of the other commenters suggested using public transit. You could also drive. Maybe they do mail order?
All of the comments I’ve read haven’t mentioned transit, or have been transit positive.
It sounds like you’re being deliberately obtuse, but just in case you’re genuine…
Cars simply weren’t a thing people had general access to before the 1950s and yet the economy and people did just fine. The huge majority of “getting around” that people need to do are going to work, going to school, shopping and entertainment. Do you really feel like having a 10 minute walk to work would be so hellish and dystopian? Wouldn’t it be nice if your kids could ask to go play in the park and they could just go 5 minutes down the road without you having to drive them? You could be a regular at that nice taco place down on the corner. You could buy more fresh produce if the grocery was across the street. If you do need to go to another city or go a farther distance, are you under the impression that people want to eliminate cars entirely? Cars are an amazing invention but the issue is over reliance, not their existence. By all means, drive or take a train an hour or two out of town but not everyone wants to have to drive to take their kids to school, sporting events or friends houses, or just to go grab food somewhere, or to see a movie, or all the other mundane daily trips that are part of every day life.
Why did they have roads? lol
Same reason the Romans built roads 2000 years before cars existed. When was the last time you went hiking? Or even for a walk on a muddy trail?
Wish we had more public green spaces that everyone can share and are easy to access via public transit/on foot/by bike. Instead we get endless parking lots.
I can’t really complain about that too much, Seattle has a lake right next to the downtown and the sound on the other side. We also have a ton of parks. When I lived in the Chicago area though, holy crap I craved nature. You had to drive for hours to get much of anything. Our back yard was all we had.
Only thing urban planners seem to understand is if you make driving more difficult somehow this magically makes mass transit better instead of people just refusing to go to that area. Also that poor people don’t have a right to park their car.