Basically what I’m saying is some things need to cater to specific crowds to function. We don’t need to get rid of the law, we need to adapt it (tbh, I don’t think we should have to do that either, I think people should respect when something’s not made for them on their own, but that won’t happen.)
I’m not just talking about things like this job fair. I’m talking about shelters for abused people as well. I might just be imagining it because it was so long ago that I read it, but I remember cases of shelters for abused men getting shut down for discriminating against women, which is ridiculous because those shelters are gender divided for a reason.
In this case, these kind of job fairs are to help more women get into male dominated fields, which is really tough because of the amount of abuse and discrimination they get in those fields.
Men and women in a general sense experience different kinds of societal issues and need to be allowed to have safe spaces away from each other.
As a male, while I do not support men breaking into that job fair, I can understand their frustrations.
There should be some limited spaces for people of one gender to stay without the other, but that should be things like shelters and other places for people in mentally vulnerable position caused by people of opposite gender, and it shouldn’t grow into a gendered separation.
Jobs should be available for everyone, and if females get less access to jobs, job market needs to be regulated to remove sources of said discrimination, without creating bigger discrimination (like outright blocking other gender’s access to same jobs).
General-purpose gendered spaces (like quite a few barbershops for males or certain feminist cafes for females) only breed more resentment and stereotypical thinking about the other gender, as there is no one to correct them and no counterexamples to be seen. Besides, gender separation makes places that can be important for a person closed from them for immutable reasons, which is a clear case of discrimination and is not cool.
I agree with you for the most part, but in practice it’s way more difficult to regulate out discrimination if you don’t first have enough women (or other minorities in other cases) working in the field to function as a support network. Even if you get the job at that point, if you’re not made to feel welcome there there’s a solid chance you’re not gonna keep that job, because nobody wants to deal with that every day.
I don’t like the idea of restricting men from the same opportunity, but there isn’t much other solution until the playing field is made more even.
As far as your last paragraph goes, pretty much in full agreement. When I say men and women need safe spaces away from each other, I don’t mean they should be secluded from each other, which is what places like that tend to cause. I mean things like support groups, friends they can vent to, and even online forums and such specifically for them. There still needs to be plenty of exposure in our daily lives though to the issues of men, women, and minorities.
My issues with Lemmy primarily come from the fact that the site is massively male dominated, which means it’s become largely an echo chamber. People here as a result have become much more sensitive to men’s issues, which is a good thing, but the tradeoff is that there’s virtually nobody stepping in for women’s issues, sometimes even going as far as to deny the issue even exists. I know the rest of the internet is often the other way around, but I really wish we could have at least one space somewhere on the internet where both men and women are allowed to say things like “this makes me uncomfortable” or “this makes me feel ashamed of my body” and be taken seriously.
I was really hoping Lemmy would be that space when I first signed up, and it was really disappointing to realize what it was actually like. Luckily, there are some instances out there that are more balanced on that, but I’d rather not have to turtle up in one of them.
Thanks for your points. While I stand by my position of regulation over reverse discrimination, I understand where you’re coming from here.
I’d like to point one thing out, however, and it stems directly from the intersection of abovementioned issue and the one you raise about Lemmy.
The place is certainly male-dominated, and yes, this can make local ethos more male-centric and masculist. Also as you rightfully mentioned, Lemmy is one of the few avenues where such thought can be propagated efficiently and not be overwhelmed in the oblivion by feminist/conservative voices.
We are, generally, in the minority, yet when we get to concentrate our voices somewhere - like Lemmy - and dominate small part of the Internet you belong to, this naturally makes you uncomfortable.
That happens because you’d like to have an equal footing everywhere, and don’t want to be discriminated against even in a small alcove that is this place.
We don’t want that, either. We don’t want to be discriminated against somewhere just because males historically dominate in other place. We don’t want to lose access to our dreams and jobs (in the abovementioned case) because previous generation has screwed it up the other way around. Many of us, however, are perfectly happy to promote a healthier workplace ethic, including towards women, and popularize females working in male-domimated spaces. This way is sometimes more rocky, but it is fair and it allows to even things out without having to radicalize and tilt scales towards the domination of the other gender.
Should “male job fairs” appear for female-dominated jobs, I’ll also stand against it, despite the knee-jerk to give males preference at taking new places to balance it out quicker and promote the new culture.
With that being said, I welcome you here on Lemmy and hope more feminist and generally female voices will join in. I’m also happy to promote feminist initiatives in this place (without forgetting masculist ones), so hit me up if something crosses your mind.
Your point of view is completely valid, and I do like having alternative points of view presented to me (hence why I said I didn’t want to turtle up in a more accepting instance.) In the end, I’m not an expert on thus kind of stuff, I can only argue based on my personal experience and how things have made me feel.
I think regulation is a completely valid way to approach it, considering it’s still a step forward regardless of if it’s the best way or not, so I far from oppose the idea. It’s just not the way I would do it if I were in charge.
Honestly, in the end, I think true equality is impossible, and is more of the ideal than the end goal. The only important part to me is to make sure we’re always going forward instead of backward.
deleted by creator
Basically what I’m saying is some things need to cater to specific crowds to function. We don’t need to get rid of the law, we need to adapt it (tbh, I don’t think we should have to do that either, I think people should respect when something’s not made for them on their own, but that won’t happen.)
I’m not just talking about things like this job fair. I’m talking about shelters for abused people as well. I might just be imagining it because it was so long ago that I read it, but I remember cases of shelters for abused men getting shut down for discriminating against women, which is ridiculous because those shelters are gender divided for a reason.
In this case, these kind of job fairs are to help more women get into male dominated fields, which is really tough because of the amount of abuse and discrimination they get in those fields.
Men and women in a general sense experience different kinds of societal issues and need to be allowed to have safe spaces away from each other.
As a male, while I do not support men breaking into that job fair, I can understand their frustrations.
There should be some limited spaces for people of one gender to stay without the other, but that should be things like shelters and other places for people in mentally vulnerable position caused by people of opposite gender, and it shouldn’t grow into a gendered separation.
Jobs should be available for everyone, and if females get less access to jobs, job market needs to be regulated to remove sources of said discrimination, without creating bigger discrimination (like outright blocking other gender’s access to same jobs).
General-purpose gendered spaces (like quite a few barbershops for males or certain feminist cafes for females) only breed more resentment and stereotypical thinking about the other gender, as there is no one to correct them and no counterexamples to be seen. Besides, gender separation makes places that can be important for a person closed from them for immutable reasons, which is a clear case of discrimination and is not cool.
I agree with you for the most part, but in practice it’s way more difficult to regulate out discrimination if you don’t first have enough women (or other minorities in other cases) working in the field to function as a support network. Even if you get the job at that point, if you’re not made to feel welcome there there’s a solid chance you’re not gonna keep that job, because nobody wants to deal with that every day.
I don’t like the idea of restricting men from the same opportunity, but there isn’t much other solution until the playing field is made more even.
As far as your last paragraph goes, pretty much in full agreement. When I say men and women need safe spaces away from each other, I don’t mean they should be secluded from each other, which is what places like that tend to cause. I mean things like support groups, friends they can vent to, and even online forums and such specifically for them. There still needs to be plenty of exposure in our daily lives though to the issues of men, women, and minorities.
My issues with Lemmy primarily come from the fact that the site is massively male dominated, which means it’s become largely an echo chamber. People here as a result have become much more sensitive to men’s issues, which is a good thing, but the tradeoff is that there’s virtually nobody stepping in for women’s issues, sometimes even going as far as to deny the issue even exists. I know the rest of the internet is often the other way around, but I really wish we could have at least one space somewhere on the internet where both men and women are allowed to say things like “this makes me uncomfortable” or “this makes me feel ashamed of my body” and be taken seriously.
I was really hoping Lemmy would be that space when I first signed up, and it was really disappointing to realize what it was actually like. Luckily, there are some instances out there that are more balanced on that, but I’d rather not have to turtle up in one of them.
Thanks for your points. While I stand by my position of regulation over reverse discrimination, I understand where you’re coming from here.
I’d like to point one thing out, however, and it stems directly from the intersection of abovementioned issue and the one you raise about Lemmy.
The place is certainly male-dominated, and yes, this can make local ethos more male-centric and masculist. Also as you rightfully mentioned, Lemmy is one of the few avenues where such thought can be propagated efficiently and not be overwhelmed in the oblivion by feminist/conservative voices.
We are, generally, in the minority, yet when we get to concentrate our voices somewhere - like Lemmy - and dominate small part of the Internet you belong to, this naturally makes you uncomfortable.
That happens because you’d like to have an equal footing everywhere, and don’t want to be discriminated against even in a small alcove that is this place.
We don’t want that, either. We don’t want to be discriminated against somewhere just because males historically dominate in other place. We don’t want to lose access to our dreams and jobs (in the abovementioned case) because previous generation has screwed it up the other way around. Many of us, however, are perfectly happy to promote a healthier workplace ethic, including towards women, and popularize females working in male-domimated spaces. This way is sometimes more rocky, but it is fair and it allows to even things out without having to radicalize and tilt scales towards the domination of the other gender.
Should “male job fairs” appear for female-dominated jobs, I’ll also stand against it, despite the knee-jerk to give males preference at taking new places to balance it out quicker and promote the new culture.
With that being said, I welcome you here on Lemmy and hope more feminist and generally female voices will join in. I’m also happy to promote feminist initiatives in this place (without forgetting masculist ones), so hit me up if something crosses your mind.
Your point of view is completely valid, and I do like having alternative points of view presented to me (hence why I said I didn’t want to turtle up in a more accepting instance.) In the end, I’m not an expert on thus kind of stuff, I can only argue based on my personal experience and how things have made me feel.
I think regulation is a completely valid way to approach it, considering it’s still a step forward regardless of if it’s the best way or not, so I far from oppose the idea. It’s just not the way I would do it if I were in charge.
Honestly, in the end, I think true equality is impossible, and is more of the ideal than the end goal. The only important part to me is to make sure we’re always going forward instead of backward.