The purpose of this community is sort of a “work out your frustrations by
letting it all out” where different leftist tendencies can vent their
frustrations with one another and more assertively and directly challenge one
another. Hostility is allowed, but any racist, fascist, or reactionary crap wont
be tolerated, nor will explicit threats.
This is not to say that Capitalism is better in any way. Capitalism and Colonialism and Feudalism has killed infinitely more people than any communist regime. But the fact of the matter is - we disagree with mass murder. It is antithetical to the fundamental goals and philosophies of leftist thought.
And that mass murder and contradiction is PRECISELY why we do not attract more people to our cause. Turns out, people like hypocrites even less than they like literal nazis (who are at least not afraid to admit that they want to commit mass murder).
And I think you guys also typically lump anarchists in with “libs” falsely associating us with capitalist liberals, which, if I didn’t have such a sense of humor about all this, I would be just as offended at being called a “lib” as you are being called a “tankie”. Because I’m NOT for capitalism. I’m deeply disturbed and ashamed of the history of Capitalist and Feudal regimes and exploitation.
I don’t sit there and say “Accusations of capitalist/colonial mass murder is KGB propaganda! You’re banned from the community!”
And that’s precisely why I’m an anarchist. I believe that these power structures inevitably lead to abuse, no matter what the ideology behind them ends up being.
You mind is already made and you are not hiding it
“Bad Faith” means that you’re just engaging to “dunk” on the opponent, and have no intention of actually listening or considering their arguments.
You have your viewpoint and I have mine, and the entire point of discussing these things is to share our viewpoints and learn from each other. Hiding our viewpoints and pretending that we’re blank slates is more in “bad faith” than not hiding them, in my view.
You guys don’t ever claim to be “blank slates” when engaging in these conversations. Why should I? Doesn’t that make you just as much in “bad faith” as it does me?
if you actually read ML spaces you would find plenty of hate for open fascists too.
I have read lots of ML spaces, and listened to ML podcasts and watched ML channels on youtube and twitch. The VAST majority of the content is criticizing the “center-left” rather than the common enemy of all three of us (of the far left, the lib left, and the center left) - we all hate nazis, and until the far-right ideologies are eradicated, I see no point in punching our allies in that fight.
The “British” part is btw very old joke, to which you respond we “love the murdering bastards”. Yikes.
I did no such thing. In fact, one of the biggest things we disagree with the British on is colonialism and the mass-murder that they perpetrated.
Again, I don’t say “Accusations of capitalist/colonial mass murder is KGB propaganda!”
I have read lots of ML spaces, and listened to ML podcasts and watched ML channels on youtube and twitch.
And never found answers to your questions.
Btw your source about atrocities of communism go 50% higher than even the infamous and long debunked Black Book, but it’s apparently “pretty great summary according to you”. Again your statement above is non withstanding.
Did you know one of the founders of Lemmy have a reading list? It’s slightly outdated and some things might be deleted but here you have:
You still haven’t addressed my main criticism of auth-left, which is the fact that mass murder completely discredits everything the left stands for.
Also, this is complete and utter bullshit:
Left-communists and ultra-leftists comprise the conservative and reactionary wing of leftism
Ultras react to the myriad dire problems facing humanity today by forsaking objective material conditions, retreating into idealism, revelling in infantile fantasy, and indulging in retrograde magical thinking, besides solipsistic one-upmanship, collecting leftist nerd-credit online, and smug self-satisfaction. They look down on and hate communists participating in and supporting real life struggles, because we disturb them from the comfort and safety of their narcissistic ivory towers.
You still haven’t addressed my main criticism of auth-left, which is the fact that mass murder completely discredits everything the left stands for.
Because you have mendacious critics coming from literal nazis in many cases, there is nothin to address. You also arrived at purely anticommunist point of view that we “like” the mass murder. No, liberal, we don’t, marxist revolutionaries just never allowed it to stop them and cripple the revolution if it was needed. Something that anarchists also did in the two rare cases when they managed to do something resembling revolution and weren’t subordinated to the forces of reaction. What you present looks like the liberal pacifism, and afaik is not espoused by any real historical revolutionary movement.
Wow… that’s how you see us? Really?
Yes, literally, because it’s truth in most cases, definitely the ones like you, demanding explanation for what nazis tell you we did. And not even entire truth because it misses the fact how ultras and anarchists are very often used as the tools for reaction, from the Kronshtadt rebellion through the ongoing COINTELPRO program to recent cases in Syria and Ukraine.
Some exception were the case, like some Maoists here and there or Posadists in Cuba, but the maoist struggle never brought any fruit even despite sometimes decades of tries and Posadists got ultimately dissolved by their inherently unstable ideology.
As you said we most likely won’t make eachother mind.
Driving tanks over thousands of people was metaphorical for mass murder…
I know you guys think Wikipedia is CIA propaganda, but this page is actually a pretty great summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes
This is not to say that Capitalism is better in any way. Capitalism and Colonialism and Feudalism has killed infinitely more people than any communist regime. But the fact of the matter is - we disagree with mass murder. It is antithetical to the fundamental goals and philosophies of leftist thought.
And that mass murder and contradiction is PRECISELY why we do not attract more people to our cause. Turns out, people like hypocrites even less than they like literal nazis (who are at least not afraid to admit that they want to commit mass murder).
And I think you guys also typically lump anarchists in with “libs” falsely associating us with capitalist liberals, which, if I didn’t have such a sense of humor about all this, I would be just as offended at being called a “lib” as you are being called a “tankie”. Because I’m NOT for capitalism. I’m deeply disturbed and ashamed of the history of Capitalist and Feudal regimes and exploitation.
I don’t sit there and say “Accusations of capitalist/colonial mass murder is KGB propaganda! You’re banned from the community!”
And that’s precisely why I’m an anarchist. I believe that these power structures inevitably lead to abuse, no matter what the ideology behind them ends up being.
“Bad Faith” means that you’re just engaging to “dunk” on the opponent, and have no intention of actually listening or considering their arguments.
You have your viewpoint and I have mine, and the entire point of discussing these things is to share our viewpoints and learn from each other. Hiding our viewpoints and pretending that we’re blank slates is more in “bad faith” than not hiding them, in my view.
You guys don’t ever claim to be “blank slates” when engaging in these conversations. Why should I? Doesn’t that make you just as much in “bad faith” as it does me?
I have read lots of ML spaces, and listened to ML podcasts and watched ML channels on youtube and twitch. The VAST majority of the content is criticizing the “center-left” rather than the common enemy of all three of us (of the far left, the lib left, and the center left) - we all hate nazis, and until the far-right ideologies are eradicated, I see no point in punching our allies in that fight.
I did no such thing. In fact, one of the biggest things we disagree with the British on is colonialism and the mass-murder that they perpetrated.
Again, I don’t say “Accusations of capitalist/colonial mass murder is KGB propaganda!”
I don’t believe you did this:
And never found answers to your questions.
Btw your source about atrocities of communism go 50% higher than even the infamous and long debunked Black Book, but it’s apparently “pretty great summary according to you”. Again your statement above is non withstanding.
Did you know one of the founders of Lemmy have a reading list? It’s slightly outdated and some things might be deleted but here you have:
https://github.com/dessalines/essays/blob/master/socialism_faq.md
That’s a great list. Love it. Will go through it.
You still haven’t addressed my main criticism of auth-left, which is the fact that mass murder completely discredits everything the left stands for.
Also, this is complete and utter bullshit:
Wow… that’s how you see us? Really?
Because you have mendacious critics coming from literal nazis in many cases, there is nothin to address. You also arrived at purely anticommunist point of view that we “like” the mass murder. No, liberal, we don’t, marxist revolutionaries just never allowed it to stop them and cripple the revolution if it was needed. Something that anarchists also did in the two rare cases when they managed to do something resembling revolution and weren’t subordinated to the forces of reaction. What you present looks like the liberal pacifism, and afaik is not espoused by any real historical revolutionary movement.
Yes, literally, because it’s truth in most cases, definitely the ones like you, demanding explanation for what nazis tell you we did. And not even entire truth because it misses the fact how ultras and anarchists are very often used as the tools for reaction, from the Kronshtadt rebellion through the ongoing COINTELPRO program to recent cases in Syria and Ukraine.
Some exception were the case, like some Maoists here and there or Posadists in Cuba, but the maoist struggle never brought any fruit even despite sometimes decades of tries and Posadists got ultimately dissolved by their inherently unstable ideology.
As you said we most likely won’t make eachother mind.