Paizo has confirmed that the Centaur and Minotaur ancestries in the upcoming Howl of the Wild book will be large size by default, with a heritage each that make them medium.
Now thematically, I think that makes sense, 5e’s ponytaurs always seemed like a cop-out. However mechanically, large size has the benifits that it allows you to reach more squares, even without additional reach, and makes it impossible for small creatures to grapple you. So I’m wondering if that’s powerful enough to require some kind of downside to balance it out.
What do ya’ll think?
I’m really happy that Paizo decided to go with keeping them large. To me one of the main draws of playing a Centaur or Minotaur is that those are a freakin half horse half human with all that comes with it, or big horned bovine humanoid. The size to me was part of the fantasy. The D&D way is just reflavored humans not a new ancestry.
As for balancing, there is the whole “what if another PCs rides the centaur” scenario (which you still have with pony centaurs and small PCs) and the reach and using larger weapons for more damage dice issue. I think the first isn’t an issue at all in PF2e and the second, well, I am curious.
Going about reach and big weapons by just saying “but you don’t have this” would seem weird. Those are generally applicable rules in the game system. But offsetting them with downsides would be tricky as you’d need a lot to make up for those upsides. Then there is grappling larger enemies and immunity to small grapplers but also the whole “I don’t fit through this” issue which is a downside but can halt adventures completely. I hope Paizo find a good solution, I don’t have one.
Centaurs may not have reach, if they’re classed as Large (Long) instead of Large (Tall). There’s a chart in the Size, Space and Reach rules that lays out the difference. The Centaur in the Bestiary works that way. The Minotaur ought to get 10 feet of base reach with melee weapons, though.
Also, larger weapons don’t inherently use larger damage dice in second edition. A Tiny greatsword does 1d12 damage, the same as a Huge greatsword. It’s possible that Large creatures will get a permanent Clumsy 1 in exchange for a flat +2 damage the same way that Enlarge does, though. That’s how they worked the feat-based size increase for Lizardmen. It’s also possible they’ll just get racial +2 Strength and -2 Dexterity or something instead.
Good points! Especially the long versus tall classifications. Long would make sense for the centaur. Also I must have mixed up my editions with the weapons.
A minotaur like that sounds like great fun to play as, but also very much shoehorning the race in to martial and easily outperforming other ancestries there.
So I wonder what the cons are going to be.
This is the first I have heard of them given I’ve turned my back on reddit. I could see medium for minotaurs honestly. Just being on the upper bounds but centaurs I really can’t unless their body is a pony.
Riding other players is always a terrible idea, and already possible due to stuff like wild shape (or enlarge I suppose).
I can see the reach issue being a problem, one potential solution they could use is to add it as a level 5 heritage feat. Ruling it as needing practice to use your reach effectively or something.
Honestly, removing the damage dice mechanic from PF1 (and a similar problem in 5e), already solves one of the biggest issues of large creatures.
Do all large creatures have reach in pf2e?
Other PCs riding them seems like it can be fun and worked with.
Typically, large creatures have reach, yes. But it’s not a guarantee.
As for PCs riding each other, the GM guide recommends you do not allow it, but offers a solution to keep it balanced if you really want to.
Gotta Squeeze through doorways then? What about 5ft wide hallways? I can see downsides there immediately
Yeah, fitting into buildings and dungeons was my first thought. Having the extra reach is going to be balanced pretty well with either carrying around shrink potions or always dealing with squeeze mechanics.
Luckily paizo rarely use 5ft wide corridors in their APs /s
I don’t think you’d need to Squeeze through either 5-foot hallways or normal sized doors. In theory that’s reserved for spaces that just barely fit your shoulders (trained) or just barely fit your head (master).
I’d think both of those would just be difficult terrain. The doorway might be greater difficult terrain, especially if it’s particularly narrow or something. Squeezing is pretty debilitating, since it’s 10 rounds (one minute) per 5 or 10 feet of movement.
I feel like there would be a speed penalty for being large and that possibly they might remove reach as a benefit of Large for those ancestries. But I have no idea how close my thoughts are to what they would do.
I hope it’s not that. Being half horse and going slower would be a hard pill to swallow. I could definitely see that with minotaur though. Bipedal with hooves sounds like a recipe for disaster.
Yeah it would make no sense for either to be slower than a medium creature.
If anything, they should be faster.
But they should also have more hp, be stronger and such.So I really wonder where the balance negatives would happen.
Maybe maluses to saves (not fortitude) or stats?
Adventures with narrow hallways
This definitely doesn’t balance it on its own, but one balancing factor around being large is that you’re much easier to flank.
