I’m voting green because if democracy is ‘on the ballot’ then I figure it’s the choice I actually believe in and not just the slightly lesser of two evils. And so recently I feel targeted by democrats and its getting kind of weird and I was wondering if any other greens are experiencing the same thing in the US. I’m very open about my party preference and intentions for 2024.
I think of it as follows: Five of us in a car and we’re sorting things out democratically. Two of us, including the driver, think the ride would be way more fun if the driver goy blackout drunk and wore a blindfold. Two of us want to go to Mcdonald’s. You don’t want to go to McDonalds and suggest a salad bar.
Well, the votes are tied and the driver and his buddy win by default and we all die in a car crash.
Yes, a salad was better than McDonalds OR a car crash but goddamn, reality is also a thing and doesn’t care about what we want.
The time to push for significant change was the primaries and our fellow progressives didn’t show up to vote. Voting a third party now just feels “if I don’t get my way, I’m taking my ball and going home!”
100% this. Until FPTP voting is done away with a vote for a liberal 3rd party is basically a vote for republicans. CGP Grey did a really easy to understand video about it.
Being pro environment is great. The national Green party in the US is kind of fucked though.
I voted Green in 2012 because a) Barack Obama was given a 99% chance of winning my state very close to the election and b) I thought I could “send a message” to the Democratic Party that they should move further left.
I did so with full knowledge that not only was Jill Stein in no position to win a single elector and that in addition she was a horrible candidate who would be literally the worst president in the entire history of the United States (this was before Trump, but I’m still going to go with that for the purposes of this discussion). I did so knowing it was a protest vote while claiming it wasn’t a protest vote but a vote of conscience.
Jill Stein and GPUSA are a bunch of corrupt fucks who only run because they take in republicans money because they regularly scrape off a 3-4% of the otherwise democratic vote, which in some districts and state can swing the entire election.
So o cast my GP vote, the total GP vote was completely in line with historical trends, Obama won my state and the presidency (thankfully), and no signal was sent, except that the republicans could rely on that.
I’m sure the Dems do something similar with the libertarian vote. I’ve even been tempted to donate (now that I have some money to donate) to libertarian candidates in elections where scraping off a point or two could tip things towards the D (which I confess is something I favor, being part of Team Rainbow). I haven’t dug into it, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that racist son of a Bircher Ron Paul didn’t help hand the election to Clinton. If so, fucking yay. I don’t love Bill, but we sure as fuck didn’t need more Ronald Reaganing.
I think everyone should treat people advocating for a GPUSA or other protest vote as a Republican stalking horse, period. Whether they’re intentionally doing it or naively turning themselves into a broadcast node doesn’t matter - I’m not judging. I’m just saying that they’re effectively campaigning for a fascist, and should be treated as one.
It’s the democrats who are behaving increasingly like fascists. They make things horrible for the underprivileged making all sorts of promises and then giving everything to redwashing corporations. They are cultivating a hyper-selfish mainstream culture based on digital clout. They are pseudocollectivist. They are not all the way in that direction but I see the trend line. It’s getting aggressive and increasingly top-down.
Trump literally said he wants to be a dictator. You’re either being purposely obtuse or have ulterior motives with this post.
How does that make the democrats not fascists? You think I’m saying the MAGA people aren’t fascist? They are definitely fascist. I already said I’m green. This thing you’re saying about Jill Stein somehow taking republican money is new information to me and I don’t know what to make of it. But it doesn’t change what’s simultaneously going on with the democrats.
EDIT : I see it was the other person who was referring to Jill Stein taking republican money.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
It is brainwash to think that the democratic party is actually in favor of the underprivileged. To me it seems like a transitional organization towards a very real fascism, a way to take horseshoe politics and twist them around until what you have is a straightforward ultraconservative party. Marxism-Leninism is basically conservative in every instance and what they have now is Marxism-Leninism Lite, so there’s not much more to go. The Soviet Union was conservative. True leftism is always libertarian or libertarian-leaning.
“Scratch a liberal, and a fascist bleeds”.
This is how I feel and how I handle it: I truly believe that allowing Trump to regain power will be the end of American democracy, and that the likely successor forms of government will be repressive, vindicative, dehumanizing and marginalizing of everyone they consider “other” - and so far, “other” is everyone who isn’t a older, white, upper-class, Christian male. [Not that you won’t be attacked if you’re an older white upper class Christian male, but if you’re young, or not white, or poor, or non Christian, or not male, they’re going to feel free to attack you.] And getting the Democrats into the White House isn’t overly helpful if the Republicans control Congress - something that’s particularly important when the Supreme Court is so conservative.
So that’s my starting position: I need liberals (or at least non-conservatives) in every post I can vote for. How can I influence things while still maintaining those goals?
Well, every party micro-analyzes every piece of data they can get their hands on, and every election report is analyzed for advantages and weaknesses. So I publicly contribute to Green causes and liberal candidates. I vote for Green, or DSA, or other liberal candidates in the primaries. The Democrats are harvesting my data and I want them to be fucking worried about me and my vote. I want them to look at me and say, “This person is talking to other people and maybe changing opinions, so we need to pay attention to the things that move this person.”
And I don’t do that just subtly, I do it openly: I write letters and emails and make phone calls to my representatives at all levels of government. I tell them when I’m against a position, and why. I tell them when I support a position, and why (so many people only contact when they’re against, but it’s just as important to contact when you’re for!). I tell them when I approve of a piece of legislation but wish it went further. There’s some old estimate that every letter represents 1000 other people who feel the same way but who didn’t write in, and I try to make sure our positions are represented in the feedback they get. On and off, I’ll talk about my concerns with friends and family. I’ll also write letters for friends or family, if they want me to, give them a pre-addressed stamped envelope - but they have to sign and mail the letter. Probably only half of them actually go out, but that’s another theoretical-1000-people for each one that does.
Like I said, I’ll vote “extra liberal” in the primaries. If my liberal candidate of choice isn’t an option, I’ll write them in. But when it comes to the general elections, right now, it’s too important to keep the Republicans out as much as possible. So I’ll hold my nose and vote Democratic then, then continue trying to influence the thoughts and policies of those that get into office.
Congrats on giving Republicans one extra vote.
One day you might realize that sleazy politicians, regardless of party affiliation, don’t care about you or anything else but themselves.
Perhaps not, and far be it from me to defend electoral politics, being an anarchocommunist, but voting isn’t necessarily a negative thing. If it’s your only political action then you’re playing directly into the hands of those in power, but voting green, or voting for actually progressive candidates within the democratic party can have the effect of moving the Overton window and creating conversation. Think about how much more popular things like universal healthcare are because of Bernie. While Bernie may not be as far left as I am, and while it’s questionable if he would actually do, or be able to do, the things he wants (or claims to want, if we’re going full jade), being on the ballot, garnering national attention has had a palpable impact on US politics. The democratic party literally had to call off the primaries in 2020 for fear the socialist who was effectively running the country during the early days of a pandemic might actually do something aboit healthcare and get elected. Since then they’ve had to push a “but trump!” Narrative to scare anyone else from even running.
Yeah, politicians suck nasty ass, but expressing a view, a show of numbers, that you prefer one style to the other can and does have an impact. It just shouldn’t be the only thing we do, that’s what they want us to do. Mutual aid, direct action, and spend 1 day to vote.
I say all this as a non-American, just to be clear. All mainstream American politics looks right-wing to me.
voting green […] can have the effect of moving the Overton window and creating conversation
I’d love if this were the case, but the pragmatist in me can’t agree. Right now, if Biden doesn’t win, the Overton window shifts to the right. Voting Green won’t shift the needle, as much as the idealist in me wishes it could. No-ones going to care that 2% more people voted for the Greens this time if Trump wins. Trump’s already stated his fascist ideals and the Overton window will shift to the right if he wins. Which means if you care about the Overton window at all, you vote to keep Trump out.
If the Democrats were in a more secure position then I’d say voting for the Greens would be very reasonable. It’d be a way to indicate that you’d like to continue to shift things leftwards. But right now, the best thing you can do if you care about left-wing or green values in the long-term is simply to keep Trump out.
Think about where you want politics to be in 2028, or 2032, or even 2036; do you think Trump or Biden winning is the best path to that goal? Because those are the realistic options right now. And personally, I think gradually shifting the Overton window leftwards is the way to do it, rather than letting the country slip into full-blown fascism and then hoping people will suddenly flip to socialism overnight on the evening before the 2036 election.
they’ve had to push a “but trump!” Narrative to scare anyone else from even running.
There certainly has been some of this. But I also think that’s something that’s very relevant right now. The time for finding more progressive Democrat candidates was during the primaries. Now, as difficult as it may be, the best thing to do is suck it up, rally behind Biden and fight for your long-term future by doing what you can to keep out the fascists. It’ll fucking suck, but not as much as Trump winning will.
Couple of small issues, but overall I do actually agree with you here.
It currently is our primary season. We just don’t get to have primaries, because the democratic party has decided we don’t deserve a choice, because somehow Biden is the only person on the planet able to defeat the devil… Somehow… The time to find progressive candidates is, according to the DNC checks notes never. Yeah. Never.
We’re not allowed a primary because it could potentially weaken Biden in the general. A stronger candidate would be bad. That’s the logic.
Secondly, as far as third party voting goes, if you’re in a red or blue state, it literally doesn’t count. The electoral college system prevents any protest vote from actually being considered. The only time it could sway anything is in a swing state, where it is unlikely to actually matter except in very close races. If you’re in a swing state, you have, IMHO, a moral obligation to vote for the democratic candidate, because while they may suck, they suck less than literal fascists. Otherwise, if you’re in a solid blue or red state, vote away however you wish, and use that to help push a narrative.
Which is why the only answer is direct democracy.
I think with the third parties there is less corruption. I think there is a lot of good to be done with the green party.
You should write to one of the Green Party’s Congresspeople about it. Even state congresspeople can do a lot to help with issues like this, they’re the foundation a nation-wide party is built on after all.
You could, if they had any. But they just run pretend campaigns for president funded by conservatives and make no effort to actually build up a party. Andrew Yang’s barely defined Forward Party has more representation than they do.
There are races all over the country that are basically uncontested. You’d think they’d have been able to find at least one deep blue district where the incumbent was out of step with their electorate, but nope. Gotta save that money for another wasteful presidential run.
Proud of you!
The US two-party system is such an aberration to me.
Let’s see, an honest question posted about voting Green nets you a current score of -8. Yeah I’d say you’re justified in feeling attacked.
I’m Canadian and don’t know much about the US Greens, but I can tell you that any party that would run Joe Biden twice is not a party I’d ever vote for, especially now given his miserable response to literal genocide.
The Democrats can do this because they think they have your vote by default. It’s not like you’re going to vote Republican, right?
But here’s the thing: you don’t get progress that way. The Democrats are never going to run someone who doesn’t support Israel unequivocally or isn’t fixated on helping capitalism destroy the planet so long as they think they can count on you voting “not Republican” every time. Yes, the Republicans are worse, but contrary to appearances, they’re on the same team, presenting the illusion of choice so long as that choice favours as little actual change for the rich as possible.
So yeah, fuck the Democrats, and definitely fuck Joe Biden and any other “let the world burn” candidate. Vote green if you want, or stay home if you like. Just make it clear to Democrats (and their apologists in this thread) that your vote isn’t a given. That’s how you drag them kicking and screaming toward progress.
Unfortunately the US is just… very right wing. Even the democrats are right of center on most things. This is just a conservative country. The democrats are about as left as you get in this country with any mainstream support, no matter how much we wish it weren’t so.
And I know man, I hate it, and I’m not going to lecture anyone that votes their conscious. If you don’t want to vote for democrats, and Biden specifically, I can’t blame you. It bewilders me that the most we can get from him over a goddamn genocide is “that’s a little much, Jack.” If you can’t vote for that I get it.
Just don’t fall into the trap of thinking that the US is more left leaning than it is. We might win on issue-to-issue polls, but when it comes down to it we’re a selfish nation that has bought into the temporarily embarrassed millionaire meme. And I don’t think that’s just the pessimism talking. We have generations worth of work ahead of us.
Downvotes are caused by being very much off topic
100%. Yes. This. High five.
