Ok, Trump aside, do you remember the US response to the 9-11 attacks?
Israel is bang out of order, but it doesn’t help that the groundwork for dealing with “terrorists” on a global scale was laid by the US.
Remember renaming French fries to “Freedom Fries” because the French dared to oppose the invasion of Iraq, a country that had very little to do with the terrorist act?
I remember it very well. They did plenty of cringe stuff including burning Dixie Chicks CDs, sure.
But I don’t remember them having a chart-topping song about murdering women in other countries they were not at war with, let alone women who were citizens of nations that are their own allies.
Do you really think there weren’t people in the US, prominent people, people in politics and in the media, calling for the death of innocent Muslims?
There were tons of public calls for some of the most brutal forms of reprisal. There were mass burnings of the Koran.
Did you miss the bit where the US invaded an entire country that had, it turns out, nothing to do with the terrorist attack at all?
I’m not saying any of what is happening in Israel is right. Far from it. But the idea that the US is somehow in a position of moral superiority here is wild.
You seem to be adopting a revisionist past where actually all they did was rename some fries in the cafeteria of their actual government.
The absolute torrent of global hatred that spewed out through the mainstream US media dwarfed what we are currently seeing from Israel, in terms of both soft insinuation and outright calls for death.
Dutch guy here. We had our own 9/11 event when Russians shot MH17 out of the air which contained 200 Dutch people. You know what we did? We prosecuted those responsible (in absentia) and they will be arrested once they enter Dutch soil. No kids were harmed in the process (apart from those on the plane). Israel’s response of collective punishment is bad shit crazy!
In EU, we know the cost of any wars and the fact creating a new circle of violence doesn’t resolve anything.
We don’t have one village without a monument commemorating the dead people from the past wars. Everybody have at least a family member who fight or died because of a war… Just go one or two generations in the past (in my case my grandmother lost 2 sisters in WW2, my grandfather was captured and sent in acamp for 2 years and managed to escape and walk back to south of France. My other grandfather family moved to France because of Franco repression in Spain, another cycle of violence…)
All my ancestors have fought for the land i’m currently on during thousand of years… We have thousand of years of war history behind us… against germany, against the UK, against the whole EU at some point “thanks” to Napoleon, and i could go to the medieval time, or even before when we fighted against Rome…
And you know what? I work everyday with Germans, British, Italian people… I didn’t kill them because they are not responsible of their leaders actions and country history…
You prosecute the responsibles of an attack (in the worse case you sent a little squad to assassinate the leaders if they hide and plan to harm you again) BUT you don’t murder all the civilians around to achieve this result. This is madness and incompetence. And that create a new cycle of violence that your children will have to pay at some point…
Or look at it and realize you can get away with it, even if it’s a sloppy war because the citizens don’t care if they lose as long as the other side still dies
The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were never particularly popular (especially when they dragged on for years). It’s just that the political class doesn’t care about what the people want.
Look at why it was unpopular. Everyone agreed it was bad for troops. Most believed it was a mistake to go at all, but a sizable portion believed it was the tactic that was wrong, that the war should have started and ended on the same day with nukes.
Yeah you could argue that what Israel is doing is much smaller in terms of body count. Iraq and Afghanistan cost million lives+ and many more ruined. Israel is only at 30-40k so far.
But the quality bluntness of propaganda and cruelty of warfare is definitely different. The palestinian people have been imprisoned on a tiny strip of land and have nowhere to go.
I’ve been wondering why nobody has brought this clear comparison up before. The progressive left knows this will only antagonize the right wing. Since the objective is to save innocent civilian lives and get a ceasefire and not to score political points, they don’t draw the parallel.
And the liberals and right wing are excusing Israels behavior because subconsciously they know they did the same thing. So if Israel is guilty, so is the US.
The only one getting political points from the comparison is Russia to keep the atrocity by Israel going, damage the Reputation of the US and distract from their own war. Well or Israel possibly. Not accusing you at all, just musing from an “information warfare” perspective.
“This shit doesn’t even happen in the US”
Ok, Trump aside, do you remember the US response to the 9-11 attacks?
Israel is bang out of order, but it doesn’t help that the groundwork for dealing with “terrorists” on a global scale was laid by the US.
Remember renaming French fries to “Freedom Fries” because the French dared to oppose the invasion of Iraq, a country that had very little to do with the terrorist act?
I remember it very well. They did plenty of cringe stuff including burning Dixie Chicks CDs, sure.
But I don’t remember them having a chart-topping song about murdering women in other countries they were not at war with, let alone women who were citizens of nations that are their own allies.
Ok, maybe not that blunt, but it was there. The blueprint and the absurd patriotism that wandered into hostile.
France was a US ally too. And the rhetoric coming out wasn’t from some young men that make pop music but from grown men politicians.
US exceptionalism is one of the factors that has led us here, is what I’m saying.
Sure. The US appetite for supporting Israel is a major factor.
But renaming your chips is not as bad as publicly calls for assassinating people being at the top of your charts.
Israel are going full mask-off genocidal. There are “blueprints” in many other genocides.
Do you really think there weren’t people in the US, prominent people, people in politics and in the media, calling for the death of innocent Muslims?
There were tons of public calls for some of the most brutal forms of reprisal. There were mass burnings of the Koran.
Did you miss the bit where the US invaded an entire country that had, it turns out, nothing to do with the terrorist attack at all?
I’m not saying any of what is happening in Israel is right. Far from it. But the idea that the US is somehow in a position of moral superiority here is wild.
You seem to be adopting a revisionist past where actually all they did was rename some fries in the cafeteria of their actual government.
The absolute torrent of global hatred that spewed out through the mainstream US media dwarfed what we are currently seeing from Israel, in terms of both soft insinuation and outright calls for death.
It’s not an idea I’m espousing. I think perhaps we’re misunderstanding each other.
Dutch guy here. We had our own 9/11 event when Russians shot MH17 out of the air which contained 200 Dutch people. You know what we did? We prosecuted those responsible (in absentia) and they will be arrested once they enter Dutch soil. No kids were harmed in the process (apart from those on the plane). Israel’s response of collective punishment is bad shit crazy!
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I dunno - mounting evidence seems to point to the hypothesis a few less imperialists wouldn’t hurt.
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Sounds like you did absolutely nothing
First, do no harm? What benefit did the US enjoy from attacking Afghanistan?
In EU, we know the cost of any wars and the fact creating a new circle of violence doesn’t resolve anything.
We don’t have one village without a monument commemorating the dead people from the past wars. Everybody have at least a family member who fight or died because of a war… Just go one or two generations in the past (in my case my grandmother lost 2 sisters in WW2, my grandfather was captured and sent in acamp for 2 years and managed to escape and walk back to south of France. My other grandfather family moved to France because of Franco repression in Spain, another cycle of violence…)
All my ancestors have fought for the land i’m currently on during thousand of years… We have thousand of years of war history behind us… against germany, against the UK, against the whole EU at some point “thanks” to Napoleon, and i could go to the medieval time, or even before when we fighted against Rome… And you know what? I work everyday with Germans, British, Italian people… I didn’t kill them because they are not responsible of their leaders actions and country history…
You prosecute the responsibles of an attack (in the worse case you sent a little squad to assassinate the leaders if they hide and plan to harm you again) BUT you don’t murder all the civilians around to achieve this result. This is madness and incompetence. And that create a new cycle of violence that your children will have to pay at some point…
Amen. War is a total systemic failure.
You would think that someone would look at the last 20 years of war on terror and conclude that maybe you shouldn’t handle it the way the US did.
Or look at it and realize you can get away with it, even if it’s a sloppy war because the citizens don’t care if they lose as long as the other side still dies
The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were never particularly popular (especially when they dragged on for years). It’s just that the political class doesn’t care about what the people want.
Look at why it was unpopular. Everyone agreed it was bad for troops. Most believed it was a mistake to go at all, but a sizable portion believed it was the tactic that was wrong, that the war should have started and ended on the same day with nukes.
Yeah you could argue that what Israel is doing is much smaller in terms of body count. Iraq and Afghanistan cost million lives+ and many more ruined. Israel is only at 30-40k so far.
But the quality bluntness of propaganda and cruelty of warfare is definitely different. The palestinian people have been imprisoned on a tiny strip of land and have nowhere to go.
I’ve been wondering why nobody has brought this clear comparison up before. The progressive left knows this will only antagonize the right wing. Since the objective is to save innocent civilian lives and get a ceasefire and not to score political points, they don’t draw the parallel.
And the liberals and right wing are excusing Israels behavior because subconsciously they know they did the same thing. So if Israel is guilty, so is the US.
The only one getting political points from the comparison is Russia to keep the atrocity by Israel going, damage the Reputation of the US and distract from their own war. Well or Israel possibly. Not accusing you at all, just musing from an “information warfare” perspective.
I think this is a fair point.
“Very little”?