Read an account of a guy lost at sea, after a while fish eyes and liver were delicacies where mere weeks before he was repulsed by the idea… When the brain decides “ok I’m taking over to keep us alive” you will not only eat things that you normally wouldn’t - you’ll enjoy doing it too.
Of course they will. I’m sure that I also would’ve reverted to cannibalism if I would have been involved in the crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571. But considering normal circumstances: what’s the point of killing animals when you don’t need to?
Why so defensive? I was politely asking questions. Perhaps you don’t feel too comfortable with your answers?
Sure, we all die, but that cow got a bolt gun too the head at approximately one fifth its lifespan. That’s an important difference, I would say.
I don’t want to control you. If you are fine with killing animals for your taste pleasure than that’s your choice. I don’t think that shows a lot of empathy, but that’s my opinion and there’s no logical argument against it. We’re not all the same.
Yes, an animal has to die because I want meat. That’s how it works for now. We are still omnivores, we are able to eat both plants and meat and both taste good to us. If we wouldn’t be able to process meat we wouldn’t eat it. Koalas can sustain themselves on eucalyptus, we can’t. Which brings up another important topic when it comes to meat.
Most Farm animals are an intermediate step between inedible plants and us. We can’t eat gras or weeds even though they are plenty, require minimum care and grow mostly everywhere. Grasing animals can, so we let them turn inedible gras into edible meat or drinkable milk. Pigs and chickens go even further. They eat basically anything we would consider inedible food waste. End stems, roots, seeds, shells, peels everything we would usually throw out into compost, pigs or chickens can and will eat. So animals and therefore meat are a way to get the most nutrition out of you environmental flora and fauna.
This, I am totally fine with. But once we started growing crops specifically to feed livestock to capitalize on cheap meat is where I disagree with the morality of eating said meat. If you want meat, buy the expensive gourmet stuff from the butcher not the packaged meat from the freezer. Also vegetarian or vegan alternatives like “Beyond Meat” are getting pretty close in taste, texture and price to regular ground meat.
Thanks for being reasonable and presenting coherent arguments.
Yes, we are able to process meat and are omnivores. However to the best of scientific knowledge you can thrive on a well planned vegan diet throughout all stages of life, including pregnancy (my vegan wife is currently pregnant), childhood and old age. This is not a matter of debate, but a scientific question and it has been thoroughly answered. All the major health institutes in the world say this: American Dietitians and Nutritionists Associations, NHS, etc. You can look it up yourself, I am on mobile.
So just because we can eat meat, does it make it right when we don’t have to in order to be healthy and happy? Animals posses a consciousness according to science as well. You can look up the cambridge declaration of consciousness.
You make a fair point about animals eating plants that we can’t digest. From a climate perspective I agree with you. IF it were better for the environment than that would be an argument in favor of eating animals, if you are willing to completely disregard the sentience and right to life of these animals. However the current statistics don’t lie. Again this is a scientific question. A vegan diet emits almost half the green house gasses than the omnivore diet. Even the so-called sustainable meats don’t outperform a vegan diet: https://ourworldindata.org/less-meat-or-sustainable-meat
As it stands eating meat is bad for the animals, bad for the environment and unnecessary to anyone who has the means and ability to eat a well planned vegan diet. Would you agree?
I partialy agree. And I want to preface this by saying I’m in full support of a heavily reduced meat consumption in out daily lives, even to the extend of vegeterianism, for the sake of animals and the enviroment. The negative consequences of our current rate of consumption are clearly evident in scientific data from mutlple sources, some of which you already presented. Empirically this is also evident in our daily lives through disgustingly low discounter meat prices and summer heat hot enough to melt ashpalt.
I won’t dare to argue about consciousness either.
I myself consume only about 20% of my national average meat intake per capita which is still roughly 300-400g per week away from zero. Not because of my effort to consume less, but because I can’t phantom how a normal person could have thatuch more meat in their diet. But I’m by no means a saint, my diet still heavily relies on diary products, honey and eggs (which each deserve a discussion of their own). The meat that I still consume is mostly heavily processed like salami, jerky or smoked bacon. Basically things which taste can not be replicated by a meat alternative.
The discussion about eating meat is an ever more prevalent topic in my personal life. And since it’s already proven that meat isn’t an absolute nutritional necessity, I would never argue on that point and condemn everyone who does. While excessive meat consumption (meat in every meal for example) is an open and shut case, regulated meat consumption is a lot harder to debate. I’ve been on both sides of the argument and have come across a few points that are very hard to argue against. I would really like to hear some opinions from somebody who is probably more well read on this topic than I am.
1. Entitlement
This is more of an ethical or philosophical issue. We as humans are, according to us, the intellectually dominant species on earth. As for hunting, one of us with a sharpened stick is already a force to be reckoned with. Put a couple of us in a group and nothing but the biggest apex predators or extremophiles are safe from us. We are just that damn good at it. The argument here is that, by rules of nature, we are entitled to hunt and consume our preferred prey as predators with disregard of our preys feeling or opinion of us. Furthermore, we are in general very good to animals, even if they are a threat to us. If a cat starts hissing at us or a goose spreads its wings and tries to bite or ankles most people turn away and try to deascalate, even though we have the physical strength to twist their head of. Since we’ve been good to most animals we should be excussed from the cruelty to the few. Some argue that this is an excuse to consume meat because (and this is a direct quote I’ve heard) “If animals don’t want to be eaten then they should’ve grown thumbs and done something about it.”.
My personal opinion on that is, that it might apply in the wilderness if you are stranded in the woods or desert, but not if your meat comes prekilled, presliced and prepackaged from the supermarket. Sure you have the rights to your kill, but how many of us would actually like to directly kill for food?
2. Culture
Some cultures are meat centric. You have grill fests or BBQs as family events, most national recipes revolve around meat, or you are regarded as less attractive if you refrain from eating meat. Some see the the non-appreciative stance toward meet as a direct attack because (another direct quote) “Do you know how much this meat costs?”. Meat becomes a status symbol and a form of belonging. And while veganism might be the right thing to do, it is hard to take the high road quietly. Food is integral to our sense of community and belonging. Some people are not ready to face those changes and therefore will not refrain from eating meat.
Personally I think that veganism has become mainstream enough over the past 2 decades to the point where this is not a good excuse aside from individuals with the most ironclad hold on their outdated opinions
3. Eating disorders
If you are able to change your diet to be fully plant based you should. But it requires a big adjustment, planning and dedication. Some people struggle with putting food I their mouth no matter whether it’s meat or not. If just the thought of eating gives you a mental breakdown, telling that person that they have to put in even more mental work into something that’s already draining is not an argument in good faith. For them the research data of the nutritional importance of meat doesn’t apply. It just do happens to be that fatty meat is extremely energy dense and nutritious, so less is more in this case.
I’d argue that this is a fringe case and those people are truly not responsible for the problems we are facing. Also veganism or vegetarianism might be the first step towards taking back control from their disorder, because it requires research and an understanding of nutrition.
4. Taste
“There’s no accounting for taste” is a vers true saying. There’s nothing short of trauma that has to happen to a person to change their taste. While a good caesars salat with a balsamico dressing, bruschetta or pasta with basil pesto and tomato’s sound very good. There’s also something very good about a medium rare steak, spare ribs drenched in BBQ sauce, hot wings or bratwurst. Becoming vegan is basically locking yourself out of 50% of the available pallet. To make another direct quote: “If god didn’t want us to eat beef, he wouldn’t have made cows so damn delicious.”.
I got nothing on that one. It’s the reason why I’m still eating meat. Some meats just taste so good that my monkey brain can forget about all the cruelty done to all the animals. Personal preference and in extend personal freedom is the hardest to argue against. I know it’s hypocritical and irrational, but I would never harm an animal but I would definetly eat their meat.
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Read an account of a guy lost at sea, after a while fish eyes and liver were delicacies where mere weeks before he was repulsed by the idea… When the brain decides “ok I’m taking over to keep us alive” you will not only eat things that you normally wouldn’t - you’ll enjoy doing it too.
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Of course they will. I’m sure that I also would’ve reverted to cannibalism if I would have been involved in the crash of Uruguayan Air Force Flight 571. But considering normal circumstances: what’s the point of killing animals when you don’t need to?
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That’s great, but the question still remains. Why kill any animal at all when you don’t need to? Unlike the cat in the comic, you’ve got a choice.
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So you do it because you like it. A cow needs to be killed because you want taste pleasure?
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Why so defensive? I was politely asking questions. Perhaps you don’t feel too comfortable with your answers?
Sure, we all die, but that cow got a bolt gun too the head at approximately one fifth its lifespan. That’s an important difference, I would say.
I don’t want to control you. If you are fine with killing animals for your taste pleasure than that’s your choice. I don’t think that shows a lot of empathy, but that’s my opinion and there’s no logical argument against it. We’re not all the same.
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I want to chime in on what @NumbersCanBeFun said.
Yes, an animal has to die because I want meat. That’s how it works for now. We are still omnivores, we are able to eat both plants and meat and both taste good to us. If we wouldn’t be able to process meat we wouldn’t eat it. Koalas can sustain themselves on eucalyptus, we can’t. Which brings up another important topic when it comes to meat.
Most Farm animals are an intermediate step between inedible plants and us. We can’t eat gras or weeds even though they are plenty, require minimum care and grow mostly everywhere. Grasing animals can, so we let them turn inedible gras into edible meat or drinkable milk. Pigs and chickens go even further. They eat basically anything we would consider inedible food waste. End stems, roots, seeds, shells, peels everything we would usually throw out into compost, pigs or chickens can and will eat. So animals and therefore meat are a way to get the most nutrition out of you environmental flora and fauna.
This, I am totally fine with. But once we started growing crops specifically to feed livestock to capitalize on cheap meat is where I disagree with the morality of eating said meat. If you want meat, buy the expensive gourmet stuff from the butcher not the packaged meat from the freezer. Also vegetarian or vegan alternatives like “Beyond Meat” are getting pretty close in taste, texture and price to regular ground meat.
Thanks for being reasonable and presenting coherent arguments.
Yes, we are able to process meat and are omnivores. However to the best of scientific knowledge you can thrive on a well planned vegan diet throughout all stages of life, including pregnancy (my vegan wife is currently pregnant), childhood and old age. This is not a matter of debate, but a scientific question and it has been thoroughly answered. All the major health institutes in the world say this: American Dietitians and Nutritionists Associations, NHS, etc. You can look it up yourself, I am on mobile.
So just because we can eat meat, does it make it right when we don’t have to in order to be healthy and happy? Animals posses a consciousness according to science as well. You can look up the cambridge declaration of consciousness.
You make a fair point about animals eating plants that we can’t digest. From a climate perspective I agree with you. IF it were better for the environment than that would be an argument in favor of eating animals, if you are willing to completely disregard the sentience and right to life of these animals. However the current statistics don’t lie. Again this is a scientific question. A vegan diet emits almost half the green house gasses than the omnivore diet. Even the so-called sustainable meats don’t outperform a vegan diet: https://ourworldindata.org/less-meat-or-sustainable-meat
As it stands eating meat is bad for the animals, bad for the environment and unnecessary to anyone who has the means and ability to eat a well planned vegan diet. Would you agree?
I partialy agree. And I want to preface this by saying I’m in full support of a heavily reduced meat consumption in out daily lives, even to the extend of vegeterianism, for the sake of animals and the enviroment. The negative consequences of our current rate of consumption are clearly evident in scientific data from mutlple sources, some of which you already presented. Empirically this is also evident in our daily lives through disgustingly low discounter meat prices and summer heat hot enough to melt ashpalt. I won’t dare to argue about consciousness either.
I myself consume only about 20% of my national average meat intake per capita which is still roughly 300-400g per week away from zero. Not because of my effort to consume less, but because I can’t phantom how a normal person could have thatuch more meat in their diet. But I’m by no means a saint, my diet still heavily relies on diary products, honey and eggs (which each deserve a discussion of their own). The meat that I still consume is mostly heavily processed like salami, jerky or smoked bacon. Basically things which taste can not be replicated by a meat alternative.
The discussion about eating meat is an ever more prevalent topic in my personal life. And since it’s already proven that meat isn’t an absolute nutritional necessity, I would never argue on that point and condemn everyone who does. While excessive meat consumption (meat in every meal for example) is an open and shut case, regulated meat consumption is a lot harder to debate. I’ve been on both sides of the argument and have come across a few points that are very hard to argue against. I would really like to hear some opinions from somebody who is probably more well read on this topic than I am.
1. Entitlement
This is more of an ethical or philosophical issue. We as humans are, according to us, the intellectually dominant species on earth. As for hunting, one of us with a sharpened stick is already a force to be reckoned with. Put a couple of us in a group and nothing but the biggest apex predators or extremophiles are safe from us. We are just that damn good at it. The argument here is that, by rules of nature, we are entitled to hunt and consume our preferred prey as predators with disregard of our preys feeling or opinion of us. Furthermore, we are in general very good to animals, even if they are a threat to us. If a cat starts hissing at us or a goose spreads its wings and tries to bite or ankles most people turn away and try to deascalate, even though we have the physical strength to twist their head of. Since we’ve been good to most animals we should be excussed from the cruelty to the few. Some argue that this is an excuse to consume meat because (and this is a direct quote I’ve heard) “If animals don’t want to be eaten then they should’ve grown thumbs and done something about it.”.
My personal opinion on that is, that it might apply in the wilderness if you are stranded in the woods or desert, but not if your meat comes prekilled, presliced and prepackaged from the supermarket. Sure you have the rights to your kill, but how many of us would actually like to directly kill for food?
2. Culture
Some cultures are meat centric. You have grill fests or BBQs as family events, most national recipes revolve around meat, or you are regarded as less attractive if you refrain from eating meat. Some see the the non-appreciative stance toward meet as a direct attack because (another direct quote) “Do you know how much this meat costs?”. Meat becomes a status symbol and a form of belonging. And while veganism might be the right thing to do, it is hard to take the high road quietly. Food is integral to our sense of community and belonging. Some people are not ready to face those changes and therefore will not refrain from eating meat.
Personally I think that veganism has become mainstream enough over the past 2 decades to the point where this is not a good excuse aside from individuals with the most ironclad hold on their outdated opinions
3. Eating disorders
If you are able to change your diet to be fully plant based you should. But it requires a big adjustment, planning and dedication. Some people struggle with putting food I their mouth no matter whether it’s meat or not. If just the thought of eating gives you a mental breakdown, telling that person that they have to put in even more mental work into something that’s already draining is not an argument in good faith. For them the research data of the nutritional importance of meat doesn’t apply. It just do happens to be that fatty meat is extremely energy dense and nutritious, so less is more in this case.
I’d argue that this is a fringe case and those people are truly not responsible for the problems we are facing. Also veganism or vegetarianism might be the first step towards taking back control from their disorder, because it requires research and an understanding of nutrition.
4. Taste
“There’s no accounting for taste” is a vers true saying. There’s nothing short of trauma that has to happen to a person to change their taste. While a good caesars salat with a balsamico dressing, bruschetta or pasta with basil pesto and tomato’s sound very good. There’s also something very good about a medium rare steak, spare ribs drenched in BBQ sauce, hot wings or bratwurst. Becoming vegan is basically locking yourself out of 50% of the available pallet. To make another direct quote: “If god didn’t want us to eat beef, he wouldn’t have made cows so damn delicious.”.
I got nothing on that one. It’s the reason why I’m still eating meat. Some meats just taste so good that my monkey brain can forget about all the cruelty done to all the animals. Personal preference and in extend personal freedom is the hardest to argue against. I know it’s hypocritical and irrational, but I would never harm an animal but I would definetly eat their meat.