A grant of rights is not ownership. If you own something, you can do whatever you want with it. If you’re granted rights to something, you are limited by the terms of the agreement.
For example, with the GPL, you are not allowed to use any (substantial) portion of the work in a propriety product. However, if you’re the author of that portion, you can.
Common ownership means everyone has the same rights related to the software. And that’s just not true for FOSS, though it can effectively be true for certain projects, provided there are enough authors. Linux is effectively commonly owned because getting every author to reassign ownership is infeasible, whereas that’s exactly not the case with MongoDB, where you sign over all copyright interest, so they completely own the work.
FOSS doesn’t require shared ownership, only shared rights, so it’s not socialist.
This all relies on a rather restrictive, and, I suspect, personally tailored definition of “ownership”. Common ownership simply means anyone can freely use something however they want. That is absolutely true of the vast majority of FOSS. And in this sense, shared rights amounts to the same as shared ownership.
Pointing out that it doesn’t allow you to cut off sharing sort of misses the forest for the trees. Of course public ownership demands the continuance of public ownership.
Common ownership simply means anyone can freely use something however they want.
I think it’s a little more complicated than that. But the problem is, digital assets are quite different from physical ones, since I can easily modify a digital asset w/o impacting anyone else, whereas I cannot do the same with a physical good. The closest analogy here is a library, where I can take a book and do whatever I want with it. However, I need to return it to the library in a similar condition as I got it or I’d exclude others from using that asset in the same way I was able to use it. If I don’t, I’m usually prevented from borrowing other books until I replace the book (or the library waves the infraction). I don’t own library books, the library does, but I can freely use the books under the terms provided.
And that’s why I think IP is artificial. Copyright is only enforced by a central authority, whereas real property ownership can be enforced by the possessor without a central authority. So ownership of IP doesn’t mean the same as ownership of real property. W/o a central authority, nobody really owns IP, which kind of means everyone owns it, since everyone has full rights w/ regards to every work they can access. But with a central authority, ownership is defined by that authority based on whatever its copyright laws state. In the US, there’s a single owner for any work (can be a person or an organization), unless it’s placed in the public domain. In a socialist country, perhaps there’s no concept of IP for citizens of that country.
So the truly “socialist” IP model is public domain, which means everyone has equivalent rights to the work. However, that also means anyone can modify it and claim complete ownership over the modified work, excluding others from those improvements. FOSS works around this by requiring all modification to be licensed such that it preserves the four freedoms (again, focusing on the F part of that acronym), but it doesn’t grant actual ownership to others contributions, it merely provides a license to use them. But that isn’t communal ownership, it’s merely a common agreement among separate owners over a combined work.
That’s why I don’t see FOSS as socialist, capitalist, or any form of economic model, it’s just a way to force future versions of a product to remain under the same terms.
What exactly do you think capitalism and socialism are, dude? You’re absolutely twisting yourself in knots trying to describe FOSS as anything but freely sharing public knowledge and resources: the exact motivation behind all leftist thought.
Is FOSS intended to enrich individuals from collective work? No? Then it’s not private property, and cannot be used as such, meaning it is not capitalist in any form.
The motivation behind leftist thought isn’t “freely sharing public knowledge and resources,” but “fighting injustice” (whatever that means). For some that means what you said, but for others that means increased central control and reliance on “experts” to structure society a certain way (i.e. “the end justifies the means”). It’s a broad spectrum of ideas.
Is FOSS intended to enrich individuals from collective work?
FOSS doesn’t care whether it’s used to enrich individuals or not, it’s just a license. Sometimes it’s used to enrich individuals, sometimes it’s used to give an alternative that doesn’t enrich individuals.
Which it is depends on project structure and licenses used. Some projects are designed to socialize costs without socializing ownership (see Mongo DB). Others are designed to also socialize ownership (e.g. Linux). It really comes down to project structure, not the specific license being used.
Leftism isn’t the same as socialism, socialism is a type of leftism.
The injustice socialists fight is largely economic injustice. And you’re right, that’s social ownership of the means of production. And no, that doesn’t mean “the public” necessarily (there are lots of forms of social), just some group democratically owns the means of production, whether that’s a company or an entire country.
Please read the rest of my previous comment. This isn’t a discussion on socialism, but FOSS. They’re two very different things.
I didn’t say leftism is the same as socialism. Socialism, though, is the common factor across leftist thought. And it does entail common ownership of the means of production. Though, to be fair, you’re correct that public ownership can take different forms. One form involves the state, which I don’t agree with.
A single company being democratically operated is not socialism, it’s a co-op. Though it is operating according to socialist principles.
FOSS enables public ownership of the means of software production.
Socialism, though, is the common factor across leftist thought.
No, there are plenty of leftist ideologies that reject socialism, and instead prefer a system of checked capitalism based on a welfare state. Socialism is extreme leftism, and there’s a lot of room between it and the center.
A single company being democratically operated is not socialism, it’s a co-op
But a co-op is socialist, the workers in that company own the means of production. Socialism scales from the small to the large. It’s just a more libertarian form of socialism that’s compatible with a broader free market economy.
FOSS enables public ownership of the means of software production.
This wording I can agree with. But that doesn’t make it socialist, it just means it can be used to further socialist goals.
But it can also be used to further capitalist goals and only socialize the costs of maintenance without socializing ownership. It really depends on how it’s used.
A grant of rights is not ownership. If you own something, you can do whatever you want with it. If you’re granted rights to something, you are limited by the terms of the agreement.
For example, with the GPL, you are not allowed to use any (substantial) portion of the work in a propriety product. However, if you’re the author of that portion, you can.
Common ownership means everyone has the same rights related to the software. And that’s just not true for FOSS, though it can effectively be true for certain projects, provided there are enough authors. Linux is effectively commonly owned because getting every author to reassign ownership is infeasible, whereas that’s exactly not the case with MongoDB, where you sign over all copyright interest, so they completely own the work.
FOSS doesn’t require shared ownership, only shared rights, so it’s not socialist.
This all relies on a rather restrictive, and, I suspect, personally tailored definition of “ownership”. Common ownership simply means anyone can freely use something however they want. That is absolutely true of the vast majority of FOSS. And in this sense, shared rights amounts to the same as shared ownership.
Pointing out that it doesn’t allow you to cut off sharing sort of misses the forest for the trees. Of course public ownership demands the continuance of public ownership.
I think it’s a little more complicated than that. But the problem is, digital assets are quite different from physical ones, since I can easily modify a digital asset w/o impacting anyone else, whereas I cannot do the same with a physical good. The closest analogy here is a library, where I can take a book and do whatever I want with it. However, I need to return it to the library in a similar condition as I got it or I’d exclude others from using that asset in the same way I was able to use it. If I don’t, I’m usually prevented from borrowing other books until I replace the book (or the library waves the infraction). I don’t own library books, the library does, but I can freely use the books under the terms provided.
And that’s why I think IP is artificial. Copyright is only enforced by a central authority, whereas real property ownership can be enforced by the possessor without a central authority. So ownership of IP doesn’t mean the same as ownership of real property. W/o a central authority, nobody really owns IP, which kind of means everyone owns it, since everyone has full rights w/ regards to every work they can access. But with a central authority, ownership is defined by that authority based on whatever its copyright laws state. In the US, there’s a single owner for any work (can be a person or an organization), unless it’s placed in the public domain. In a socialist country, perhaps there’s no concept of IP for citizens of that country.
So the truly “socialist” IP model is public domain, which means everyone has equivalent rights to the work. However, that also means anyone can modify it and claim complete ownership over the modified work, excluding others from those improvements. FOSS works around this by requiring all modification to be licensed such that it preserves the four freedoms (again, focusing on the F part of that acronym), but it doesn’t grant actual ownership to others contributions, it merely provides a license to use them. But that isn’t communal ownership, it’s merely a common agreement among separate owners over a combined work.
That’s why I don’t see FOSS as socialist, capitalist, or any form of economic model, it’s just a way to force future versions of a product to remain under the same terms.
What exactly do you think capitalism and socialism are, dude? You’re absolutely twisting yourself in knots trying to describe FOSS as anything but freely sharing public knowledge and resources: the exact motivation behind all leftist thought.
Is FOSS intended to enrich individuals from collective work? No? Then it’s not private property, and cannot be used as such, meaning it is not capitalist in any form.
Capitalism and socialism are economic systems.
The motivation behind leftist thought isn’t “freely sharing public knowledge and resources,” but “fighting injustice” (whatever that means). For some that means what you said, but for others that means increased central control and reliance on “experts” to structure society a certain way (i.e. “the end justifies the means”). It’s a broad spectrum of ideas.
FOSS doesn’t care whether it’s used to enrich individuals or not, it’s just a license. Sometimes it’s used to enrich individuals, sometimes it’s used to give an alternative that doesn’t enrich individuals.
Which it is depends on project structure and licenses used. Some projects are designed to socialize costs without socializing ownership (see Mongo DB). Others are designed to also socialize ownership (e.g. Linux). It really comes down to project structure, not the specific license being used.
No further reading necessary.
Educate yourself. Socialism aims to put the means of production in the hands of the public. This is literally the public pooling of resources.
Stop embarrassing yourself.
Leftism isn’t the same as socialism, socialism is a type of leftism.
The injustice socialists fight is largely economic injustice. And you’re right, that’s social ownership of the means of production. And no, that doesn’t mean “the public” necessarily (there are lots of forms of social), just some group democratically owns the means of production, whether that’s a company or an entire country.
Please read the rest of my previous comment. This isn’t a discussion on socialism, but FOSS. They’re two very different things.
I didn’t say leftism is the same as socialism. Socialism, though, is the common factor across leftist thought. And it does entail common ownership of the means of production. Though, to be fair, you’re correct that public ownership can take different forms. One form involves the state, which I don’t agree with.
A single company being democratically operated is not socialism, it’s a co-op. Though it is operating according to socialist principles.
FOSS enables public ownership of the means of software production.
No, there are plenty of leftist ideologies that reject socialism, and instead prefer a system of checked capitalism based on a welfare state. Socialism is extreme leftism, and there’s a lot of room between it and the center.
But a co-op is socialist, the workers in that company own the means of production. Socialism scales from the small to the large. It’s just a more libertarian form of socialism that’s compatible with a broader free market economy.
This wording I can agree with. But that doesn’t make it socialist, it just means it can be used to further socialist goals.
But it can also be used to further capitalist goals and only socialize the costs of maintenance without socializing ownership. It really depends on how it’s used.