On another note, you should know there are 2 million Arabs living peacefully inside Israel as citizens with full rights. So it’s hard to argue for an ethnic cleansing case, even though what is happening in Gaza is bordering o genocide.
Those are the people who were allowed to stay, ruled under military law (not unlike the modern West Bank) for 20 years and only then got anything resembling human rights. I say anything resembling because they are still second class citizens.
Removing 80% of a land’s people (which is what Israel did in 1948-1949) is ethnic cleansing.
Ah ok. Sure, that’s true. But it’s still something, right? I’ve lived in Haifa and Akko (which is predominantly an Arab community) and I’ve seen that coexistence is possible. Arabs have businesses, families, pay the same taxes as Israelis and run their lives. So the whole ethnic cleansing thing is hard for me to swallow. Are the Likud opportunists exploiting a crisis to farm more land for Israel? Absolutely and it’s despicable.
Nobody is saying otherwise, not even Hamas (they dropped that in 2017).
Arabs have businesses, families, pay the same taxes as Israelis and run their lives. So the whole ethnic cleansing thing is hard for me to swallow
Do you see Native Americans having businesses, families and paying the same taxes as white Americans and find the idea that they were victims of genocide as soon as 150 years ago hard to swallow?
You need to remember something: Israel’s UN-assigned borders (to say nothing of the territory they took in 1949) used to contain 55% of all Palestinians. The Palestinians who were driven from their homes during the Nakba were about half the total population. If there was no ethnic cleansing there wouldn’t be Arab communities, because Arabs would be everywhere.
Yes, I don’t disagree with what you’re saying here, but we’re reverting to historical context once again. I’m going to check out of this thread since I see the downvote brigade is here and I’m tired but I appreciate the discussion. Have a good one.
That’s not a salient point. You’re still operating off the myth that a genocide is killing everyone in an ethnicity. First the ICJ has confirmed that the Palestinians are a distinct group. Second you should really go look at the UN definition of genocide. Israel has been flirting with the line for decades.
I’m very familiar with the UN definition. The essential feature is demonstrating intent (dolus specialis). I agree that it is bordering on genocide but I don’t know if intent has been demonstrated. It’s frustratingly difficult, because every conflict entails civilian casualties unfortunately. The case brought forward by South Africa failed to demonstrate dolus specialis, which is required to prove intent.
Syria wiped out 100k people in the last decade alone but Lemmy is particularly focused on this one group because they woke up on Oct 7 and learned Palestine is a thing. Tbh, I’m checked out of this thread and topic at this point. Lemmy is absolutely not the place for any nuance discussion on the point so thanks for your input but I’m signing off.
Americans are focused on Israel because we’re sending weapons to the bad guys. We didn’t send weapons to Assad, and we actively fought against ISIS. Are you alleging the Kurds committed systemic war crimes?
And no intent? Fucking hell boss how much intent do you need? They’ve checked every item on the list and made public remarks about there being no innocent Palestinians. This isn’t an oopsie. They’re actively keeping civilians who would like to evacuate in the combat zone, shooting them if they try to actually leave and preventing food from getting to them.
This is wildly beyond the pale for any military operation with ethical goals. And before you go off half cocked with, “how can we know, we’re just civilians?” I’m not. I was in Iraq in 2003. I know what it’s supposed to look like. I know how you’re supposed to treat people, and I know how to conduct military operations that don’t just create more terrorists. And this ain’t it. This is just one giant war crime.
I think you missed the whole point of my position. You brought up the UN definition. If you want to go to personal anecdotes that’s also fair game but I’m not interested in this conversation any more. This place is not suited for it because we’re practically talking past each other and I can see you’re very emotionally invested. Thanks have a good day.
Lmao. Personal anecdotes. I’m not talking about my experiences. I’m talking about the objective requirements to protect civilian populations in a war. You don’t go the exact other way on every single thing unless you’re trying to kill as many civilians as you can without outright shooting every one you see.
On another note, you should know there are 2 million Arabs living peacefully inside Israel as citizens with full rights. So it’s hard to argue for an ethnic cleansing case, even though what is happening in Gaza is bordering o genocide.
Those are the people who were allowed to stay, ruled under military law (not unlike the modern West Bank) for 20 years and only then got anything resembling human rights. I say anything resembling because they are still second class citizens.
Removing 80% of a land’s people (which is what Israel did in 1948-1949) is ethnic cleansing.
Nope. You are confused. I’m talking about Israeli citizens with full rights. I’m not talking about the residents of areas B & C.
Yes, and I’m saying that they only gained those “full” (they’re not) rights after 20 years of what is going on in the West Bank now.
Ah ok. Sure, that’s true. But it’s still something, right? I’ve lived in Haifa and Akko (which is predominantly an Arab community) and I’ve seen that coexistence is possible. Arabs have businesses, families, pay the same taxes as Israelis and run their lives. So the whole ethnic cleansing thing is hard for me to swallow. Are the Likud opportunists exploiting a crisis to farm more land for Israel? Absolutely and it’s despicable.
Nobody is saying otherwise, not even Hamas (they dropped that in 2017).
Do you see Native Americans having businesses, families and paying the same taxes as white Americans and find the idea that they were victims of genocide as soon as 150 years ago hard to swallow?
You need to remember something: Israel’s UN-assigned borders (to say nothing of the territory they took in 1949) used to contain 55% of all Palestinians. The Palestinians who were driven from their homes during the Nakba were about half the total population. If there was no ethnic cleansing there wouldn’t be Arab communities, because Arabs would be everywhere.
Yes, I don’t disagree with what you’re saying here, but we’re reverting to historical context once again. I’m going to check out of this thread since I see the downvote brigade is here and I’m tired but I appreciate the discussion. Have a good one.
That’s not a salient point. You’re still operating off the myth that a genocide is killing everyone in an ethnicity. First the ICJ has confirmed that the Palestinians are a distinct group. Second you should really go look at the UN definition of genocide. Israel has been flirting with the line for decades.
I’m very familiar with the UN definition. The essential feature is demonstrating intent (dolus specialis). I agree that it is bordering on genocide but I don’t know if intent has been demonstrated. It’s frustratingly difficult, because every conflict entails civilian casualties unfortunately. The case brought forward by South Africa failed to demonstrate dolus specialis, which is required to prove intent.
Syria wiped out 100k people in the last decade alone but Lemmy is particularly focused on this one group because they woke up on Oct 7 and learned Palestine is a thing. Tbh, I’m checked out of this thread and topic at this point. Lemmy is absolutely not the place for any nuance discussion on the point so thanks for your input but I’m signing off.
Americans are focused on Israel because we’re sending weapons to the bad guys. We didn’t send weapons to Assad, and we actively fought against ISIS. Are you alleging the Kurds committed systemic war crimes?
And no intent? Fucking hell boss how much intent do you need? They’ve checked every item on the list and made public remarks about there being no innocent Palestinians. This isn’t an oopsie. They’re actively keeping civilians who would like to evacuate in the combat zone, shooting them if they try to actually leave and preventing food from getting to them.
This is wildly beyond the pale for any military operation with ethical goals. And before you go off half cocked with, “how can we know, we’re just civilians?” I’m not. I was in Iraq in 2003. I know what it’s supposed to look like. I know how you’re supposed to treat people, and I know how to conduct military operations that don’t just create more terrorists. And this ain’t it. This is just one giant war crime.
I think you missed the whole point of my position. You brought up the UN definition. If you want to go to personal anecdotes that’s also fair game but I’m not interested in this conversation any more. This place is not suited for it because we’re practically talking past each other and I can see you’re very emotionally invested. Thanks have a good day.
Lmao. Personal anecdotes. I’m not talking about my experiences. I’m talking about the objective requirements to protect civilian populations in a war. You don’t go the exact other way on every single thing unless you’re trying to kill as many civilians as you can without outright shooting every one you see.
Lmao indeed.