We can and should go back in time to understand what’s happening in today’s era.
If you never learn about history, you’ll never understand what is happening today.
In your point of view; we should never look back on what Nazi Germany did because we cannot go back in time.
Hypothetical question to you;
If you were living in peace with your family in your house and suddenly 5 people come. They beat you up, murder few of your family members and put you in the bathroom for 10 years.
You manage to escape and out of rage kill you someone. You suddenly get called out for being the aggressor and the ones that started it are now victimized.
How would that make you feel? Because that’s what is happening now.
I don’t know why they refused that back then however, I can understand it. It was and is the Palestinian land. It was stolen in 1948.
Why “share the land” when it was theirs all along and never asked peacefully to share the land for the people back then?
You’re turning this around as if Palestinians are the wrong one for wanting to live in peace in their own land
EDIT: I would also like to add
Israel has been refusing to make a two-state solution.
Israel has been doing all the atrocities for 75 years.
Israel has been having Apartheid, illegal settlements and two separate laws for Israeli and Palestinian people.
Israel has the control over the open air prison against Palestinian people
Israel has been sending men, women and children to prison unfairly.
Israel keep provoking Palestinians
Israel wants to drop an atomic bomb on Palestinian people.
Now tell me who’s the aggressor, how would you make peace and a two-state solution with the Israeli government.
The history is not relevant to any current peace plan. Besides, if you dig deep enough, the inhabitants if the earliest recorded history were judaic and spoke Hebrew.
Why do you give a complete pass for Hamas’s strategy of intentional war crimes and terrorism?
You really can’t tell the difference between a country with a Democratic government that actually punishes war crimes, and an ungovernable hellhole ruled by criminals who reward war crimes?
The history is not relevant to any current peace plan. Besides, if you dig deep enough, the inhabitants if the earliest recorded history were Judaic and spoke Hebrew.
The history will always be relevant for a peace plan. You cannot leave out 75 years of oppression, apartheid, murdering, racism, illegal settlements, unfair laws, unfair prison time and hate.
Do you have any trustable sources for your particular claim? It’s widely known that Palestinians and the Jewish people lived among each other in peace back in the day. Not only that, the Palestinian people openly accepted the Jewish people to live with them due to WW2 – This is widely known as well.
Why do you give a complete pass for Hamas’s strategy of intentional war crimes and terrorism?
If that’s all you managed to understand from what has been written by me then, I’m not sure whether it is worth it to discuss further. But for the sake of it, I will respond to this.
So first and foremost, I do not give a pass to Hamas for their crimes and terrorism. I condemn both Hamas and Israel for murdering innocent civilians.
However once again, my point, Hamas is a literal creation of Israel crimes from 1948 up to 1987.
I mean what do you expect the Palestinians who decided to join Hamas to do?
Do realize the people who joined Hamas lost everything they ever cared for because of Israel actions.
They lost their land, homes, family, friends and freedom. You can expect at some point that people will do something back.
If Israel never stole the land in 1948, displaced 750 000 people, murdered many and everything else that I have said before. Hamas would not have existed and they would not have done what they have done.
My question to you; Why is it ‘’strategy of intentional war crimes and terrorism’’ when Hamas does it but when Israel, an actual (illegal) state displaces 750 000 people, murder many people (men, women and children), laying sieges, bombarding villages and population centers, setting fires to homes, properties and goods. Planting mines among the rubble to prevent any of the expelled people from returning (ethnic cleansing) and currently doing genocide – Why is this (suddenly) not terrorism and war crimes?
I have not once seen from you in your current comment to me about Israel horrifying actions.
You really can’t tell the difference between a country with a Democratic government that actually punishes war crimes, and an ungovernable hellhole ruled by criminals who reward war crimes?
I’m sorry but Israel is democratic? No. They are not in reality.
Yes, on paper they are democratic but in reality they definitely are not.
Israel does not have a true democracy. They have unfair laws and rules against Palestinian people.
They have two separate laws, one for Israeli’s and one for Palestinian people.
The Palestinian people can and are usually sent to prison based on nothing (there’s many evidence of it, so I’d say search for it).
Israel does not punish war crimes, they commit them! – Israel became an actual state by doing war crimes.
They only ‘’punish war crimes’’ when it is against them and not in favor of the Likud party.
If everything that has been happening from 1948 up to today (2024) and you do not see that as actual terrorism, hell-ruled by criminals who reward war crimes (as you call it) then I do not understand you.
Not only that, majority of the Israeli people want their Prime Minister gone but he refuses to:
‘’A poll published in January found that only 15 percent of Israelis wanted him to remain in office after the war. And, in another recent poll, by Israel’s Channel 13, most Israelis said they did not trust Mr. Netanyahu’s handling of the war. Support for his right-wing Likud party has likewise cratered. And yet, Mr. Netanyahu remains in power, largely unchallenged.’’
Hamas is just pan-Islamism with a twist of Palestinian nationalism. It’s nothing new. Israel didn’t create pan-Islamism, which dates to the Ottoman empire, which oppressed the shit out of Jews. It’s distinct from ISIS, Islamic Jihad, and the Iranian Immamate solely in terms of who they believe should be in charge, and where the new caliphate should be seated, after they finish genociding all the Jews and Christians in the middle east.
Political science defines Israel as a democracy because it is one. Same as America, it’s considered a “flawed democracy.”
Go to your pals in Gaza and say something nice about democracy. See if you don’t get stoned to death for being an infidel. Nobody will miss them once they are gone except maybe a few extremists in Gaza who have Stockholm Syndrome.
You seem to not have actual knowledge on how Hamas formed and their reasoning.
You dismiss every reason of Hamas existence and just victimize Israel and blame Hamas (probably because you might not have knowledge, I will give you the edge on that).
Since you do not give any sources of your claims, dismiss Palestinian lives, dismiss Hamas reasons of existing and victimize Israel when there’s clear evidence that Israel has been commiting crimes for 7 decades. I won’t comment to you any further. It seems to be a waste of time, energy and effort.
BTW, thanks for discussing without engaging in ad-homs --I’m appreciating the conversation. It’s sad this needs to be said, but just getting it out there. To go back to the topic:
I didn’t say we should Ignore history. History is absolutely pertinent. When I’m talking about turning back the clock, I’m referring to the Peel commission as well as the establishment of the Jewish state. We can’t undo the process that occurred, just like we can’t undo the settlement of the Americas by western people that displaced the Native Americans. We need concrete, actionable plan that can bring the Israelis to the table. Dwelling on the actions of just the Israeli side is unproductive and will not yield any results. Just like the Marshall plan was effective with post WW2 Germany, action needs to happen towards reformation and peace building -Not reverting to playing the blame game.
On your edit:
This is not true. Israel has accepted two state solution proposals multiple times, but each time the Palestinians walked away (1947, 1968).
“Israel has been doing all the atrocities for 75 years”: I’m not sure what this is intended to say. Are you saying PLO, Hamas are without any blood on their hands? Palestinians have been committing acts of violence without exception, including in Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt. Also one of the reasons these three --also Arab nations-- have had fraught relations with the Palestinians.
“Israel keeps provoking Palestinians”: I agree the settlements are the driver behind a lot of the violence. The settlements need to be demolished and returned to the Palestinian people without exception. But to speak in such absolute terms betrays a lot of history and dilutes your point or any effort towards a peace process.
“Israel wants to drop an atomic bomb”: again, the statement of some individuals is not representative of an entire government or people. But Israel’s right wing government is absolutely exploiting the Oct 7 attack in order to exert maximum casualties in Gaza. Netanyahu needs to be replaced asap.
Back to my original point: what needs to happen, concretely, moving forward? How can we bring both sides to the table for negotiations?
I didn’t say we should Ignore history. History is absolutely pertinent. When I’m talking about turning back the clock, I’m referring to the Peel commission as well as the establishment of the Jewish state. We can’t undo the process that occurred, just like we can’t undo the settlement of the Americas by western people that displaced the Native Americans. We need concrete, actionable plan that can bring the Israelis to the table. Dwelling on the actions of just the Israeli side is unproductive and will not yield any results. Just like the Marshall plan was effective with post WW2 Germany, action needs to happen towards reformation and peace building -Not reverting to playing the blame game.
Then I understood that incorrectly. It is true we cannot undo the process but we do have to understand what happened to also understand Hamas perspective (and the normal Palestinian civilians).
I, personally, was not dwelling on it. I was giving an argument and a bit of history, the first commentor pretended as if it started somewhere around the ~2000. Which is not true.
This is not true. Israel has accepted two state solution proposals multiple times, but each time the Palestinians walked away (1947, 1968).
Yes and again my question to that; Why would they agree to it? The land was unfairly ‘given away’ to the Jewish people back then. The Palestinians themselves had no say in it. The land was theirs (and still is!) and it was suddenly given away by another country (I think it was Britain?).
That’s like someone forcefully entering your home and claim ‘’this will now be our house’’. It does not work like that and it should not.
“Israel has been doing all the atrocities for 75 years”: I’m not sure what this is intended to say. Are you saying PLO, Hamas are without any blood on their hands? Palestinians have been committing acts of violence without exception, including in Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt. Also one of the reasons these three --also Arab nations-- have had fraught relations with the Palestinians.
I mean by this that for more than 7 decades Israel has been doing immensely awful things (the things I listed before). No, I’m not saying Hamas and the other groups never had blood on their hands, they do.
But realize Hamas did not exist until 1987. Before that Israel already had shed much blood already.
Israel had been doing bad things for 39-40 years before Hamas become an actual group.
Hamas is a literal creation of Israel’s actions.
Certainly Palestinian have done their fair share of violence but many people from many countries as well.
“Israel keeps provoking Palestinians”: I agree the settlements are the driver behind a lot of the violence. The settlements need to be demolished and returned to the Palestinian people without exception. But to speak in such absolute terms betrays a lot of history and dilutes your point or any effort towards a peace process.
Israel has made the possibility of peace between Israeli’s and Palestinians not possible anymore and they (Israel Government) do not even want peace. They want the land and the Palestinians gone (erased) and this can be proven on how the entire Likud party behaves and speaks. I say that in absolute terms because it is true. Israel (government) keep provoking Palestinian people, there so many writing and video evidence of it.
“Israel wants to drop an atomic bomb”: again, the statement of some individuals is not representative of an entire government or people. But Israel’s right wing government is absolutely exploiting the Oct 7 attack in order to exert maximum casualties in Gaza. Netanyahu needs to be replaced asap.
This is not just ‘’some individual’’. This was said by the far-right Israeli Jerusalem Affairs and Heritage Minister, Amichai Eliyahu. So yes, it can be representative.
Also Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant called Palestinian people ‘’rats’’. Would you say the very Defense Minister of Israel is not an ‘’representative’’?
There’s enough evidence.
EDIT: Correction of a specific date “1948” to “1987”
That’s fair. I agree with a lot of what you’re saying here --I don’t know that there’s much to contest. But, again, going back to the Peel partition is not going to happen. At that time, there was no “Palestine” as a nation and–as much as this sucks, because it does-- it was under British mandate. If we’re going to leverage history then both sides will play the same game: the Jews will say that this was their homeland 2000 years ago. That’s why I don’t place too much weight on land swaps that happened in the last century. At some point, we have to draw a line somewhere and move forward. I don’t think we can even go back to the 68 partition at this point, so what’s the point any more? Somehow, we need to force both parties into negotiations before more innocent people are killed. That’s my only thesis.
We can and should go back in time to understand what’s happening in today’s era. If you never learn about history, you’ll never understand what is happening today.
In your point of view; we should never look back on what Nazi Germany did because we cannot go back in time.
Hypothetical question to you; If you were living in peace with your family in your house and suddenly 5 people come. They beat you up, murder few of your family members and put you in the bathroom for 10 years.
You manage to escape and out of rage kill you someone. You suddenly get called out for being the aggressor and the ones that started it are now victimized.
How would that make you feel? Because that’s what is happening now.
I don’t know why they refused that back then however, I can understand it. It was and is the Palestinian land. It was stolen in 1948.
Why “share the land” when it was theirs all along and never asked peacefully to share the land for the people back then?
You’re turning this around as if Palestinians are the wrong one for wanting to live in peace in their own land
EDIT: I would also like to add
Now tell me who’s the aggressor, how would you make peace and a two-state solution with the Israeli government.
The history is not relevant to any current peace plan. Besides, if you dig deep enough, the inhabitants if the earliest recorded history were judaic and spoke Hebrew.
Why do you give a complete pass for Hamas’s strategy of intentional war crimes and terrorism?
You really can’t tell the difference between a country with a Democratic government that actually punishes war crimes, and an ungovernable hellhole ruled by criminals who reward war crimes?
The history will always be relevant for a peace plan. You cannot leave out 75 years of oppression, apartheid, murdering, racism, illegal settlements, unfair laws, unfair prison time and hate.
Do you have any trustable sources for your particular claim? It’s widely known that Palestinians and the Jewish people lived among each other in peace back in the day. Not only that, the Palestinian people openly accepted the Jewish people to live with them due to WW2 – This is widely known as well.
If that’s all you managed to understand from what has been written by me then, I’m not sure whether it is worth it to discuss further. But for the sake of it, I will respond to this. So first and foremost, I do not give a pass to Hamas for their crimes and terrorism. I condemn both Hamas and Israel for murdering innocent civilians.
However once again, my point, Hamas is a literal creation of Israel crimes from 1948 up to 1987. I mean what do you expect the Palestinians who decided to join Hamas to do?
Do realize the people who joined Hamas lost everything they ever cared for because of Israel actions. They lost their land, homes, family, friends and freedom. You can expect at some point that people will do something back.
If Israel never stole the land in 1948, displaced 750 000 people, murdered many and everything else that I have said before. Hamas would not have existed and they would not have done what they have done.
My question to you; Why is it ‘’strategy of intentional war crimes and terrorism’’ when Hamas does it but when Israel, an actual (illegal) state displaces 750 000 people, murder many people (men, women and children), laying sieges, bombarding villages and population centers, setting fires to homes, properties and goods. Planting mines among the rubble to prevent any of the expelled people from returning (ethnic cleansing) and currently doing genocide – Why is this (suddenly) not terrorism and war crimes?
I have not once seen from you in your current comment to me about Israel horrifying actions.
I’m sorry but Israel is democratic? No. They are not in reality.
Yes, on paper they are democratic but in reality they definitely are not. Israel does not have a true democracy. They have unfair laws and rules against Palestinian people. They have two separate laws, one for Israeli’s and one for Palestinian people. The Palestinian people can and are usually sent to prison based on nothing (there’s many evidence of it, so I’d say search for it).
Israel does not punish war crimes, they commit them! – Israel became an actual state by doing war crimes.
They only ‘’punish war crimes’’ when it is against them and not in favor of the Likud party.
If everything that has been happening from 1948 up to today (2024) and you do not see that as actual terrorism, hell-ruled by criminals who reward war crimes (as you call it) then I do not understand you.
Not only that, majority of the Israeli people want their Prime Minister gone but he refuses to:
‘’A poll published in January found that only 15 percent of Israelis wanted him to remain in office after the war. And, in another recent poll, by Israel’s Channel 13, most Israelis said they did not trust Mr. Netanyahu’s handling of the war. Support for his right-wing Likud party has likewise cratered. And yet, Mr. Netanyahu remains in power, largely unchallenged.’’
Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/02/opinion/netanyahu-protests-legacy-war.html
EDIT/ Note: Since you made it a bit more personal, I’ll say this:
I, personally, blame Israel for creating such a horror in the world that a group like Hamas was created.
EDIT 2: I would also like you to read this regard Israel’s so called ‘‘democracy’’:
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/30/israel-hasnt-been-a-democracy-for-a-long-time-now-israelis-need-to-face-this-fact
Hamas is just pan-Islamism with a twist of Palestinian nationalism. It’s nothing new. Israel didn’t create pan-Islamism, which dates to the Ottoman empire, which oppressed the shit out of Jews. It’s distinct from ISIS, Islamic Jihad, and the Iranian Immamate solely in terms of who they believe should be in charge, and where the new caliphate should be seated, after they finish genociding all the Jews and Christians in the middle east.
Political science defines Israel as a democracy because it is one. Same as America, it’s considered a “flawed democracy.”
Go to your pals in Gaza and say something nice about democracy. See if you don’t get stoned to death for being an infidel. Nobody will miss them once they are gone except maybe a few extremists in Gaza who have Stockholm Syndrome.
So what I get from you is:
Since you do not give any sources of your claims, dismiss Palestinian lives, dismiss Hamas reasons of existing and victimize Israel when there’s clear evidence that Israel has been commiting crimes for 7 decades. I won’t comment to you any further. It seems to be a waste of time, energy and effort.
That’s correct, I generally don’t include links to things that are well known facts and easily verifiable in three seconds of Googling.
BTW, thanks for discussing without engaging in ad-homs --I’m appreciating the conversation. It’s sad this needs to be said, but just getting it out there. To go back to the topic:
On your edit:
Back to my original point: what needs to happen, concretely, moving forward? How can we bring both sides to the table for negotiations?
Then I understood that incorrectly. It is true we cannot undo the process but we do have to understand what happened to also understand Hamas perspective (and the normal Palestinian civilians).
I, personally, was not dwelling on it. I was giving an argument and a bit of history, the first commentor pretended as if it started somewhere around the ~2000. Which is not true.
Yes and again my question to that; Why would they agree to it? The land was unfairly ‘given away’ to the Jewish people back then. The Palestinians themselves had no say in it. The land was theirs (and still is!) and it was suddenly given away by another country (I think it was Britain?).
That’s like someone forcefully entering your home and claim ‘’this will now be our house’’. It does not work like that and it should not.
I mean by this that for more than 7 decades Israel has been doing immensely awful things (the things I listed before). No, I’m not saying Hamas and the other groups never had blood on their hands, they do.
But realize Hamas did not exist until 1987. Before that Israel already had shed much blood already. Israel had been doing bad things for 39-40 years before Hamas become an actual group. Hamas is a literal creation of Israel’s actions.
Certainly Palestinian have done their fair share of violence but many people from many countries as well.
Israel has made the possibility of peace between Israeli’s and Palestinians not possible anymore and they (Israel Government) do not even want peace. They want the land and the Palestinians gone (erased) and this can be proven on how the entire Likud party behaves and speaks. I say that in absolute terms because it is true. Israel (government) keep provoking Palestinian people, there so many writing and video evidence of it.
This is not just ‘’some individual’’. This was said by the far-right Israeli Jerusalem Affairs and Heritage Minister, Amichai Eliyahu. So yes, it can be representative. Also Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant called Palestinian people ‘’rats’’. Would you say the very Defense Minister of Israel is not an ‘’representative’’?
There’s enough evidence.
EDIT: Correction of a specific date “1948” to “1987”
That’s fair. I agree with a lot of what you’re saying here --I don’t know that there’s much to contest. But, again, going back to the Peel partition is not going to happen. At that time, there was no “Palestine” as a nation and–as much as this sucks, because it does-- it was under British mandate. If we’re going to leverage history then both sides will play the same game: the Jews will say that this was their homeland 2000 years ago. That’s why I don’t place too much weight on land swaps that happened in the last century. At some point, we have to draw a line somewhere and move forward. I don’t think we can even go back to the 68 partition at this point, so what’s the point any more? Somehow, we need to force both parties into negotiations before more innocent people are killed. That’s my only thesis.