Bullshit. A Nazi whose arm gets broken outside the context of someone defending themselves against them only creates an angstier angrier and more radicalized Nazi. It’s more counter productive than people like to think.
Not necessarily. There are a lot of neonazis, that stopped their political activity after an attack and even if they continue to do nazi shit they will become more paranoid. What most militant antifascists are trying to do is to scare nazis out of politics. Its mostly psychological warfare
“not necessarily” is a very low bar to excuse violence which we know radicalizes people. If it’s mostly psychological then I don’t see the need for arm breaking.
And before people give me shit about this: I hate Nazis, neoNazis have bothered me and my family on a personal level in the 90’s. They made us feel unsafe, and continue to make me feel unsafe where I live now whenever I randomly encounter them.
But fucking hell if I saw someone attacking a white power skinhead and breaking their arm unprovoked, I will be on their side and I will defend them.
But to apply psychological pressure you need to set examples. Why would they stop if they don‘t have to deal with any consequences?
I am not arguing in favor of beating every neonazi you meet on the street. One violent attack every few months, that is published widely by the media is enough to remember them, that violence creates counter-violence and that they should think twice, if its worth getting their arm broken just to harass someone they don‘t like.
No, I don‘t have scientific studies to back up my thesis. There most research towards right-wing or left-wing extremism focuses on the reasons or „reasons“ people have for radicalizing and how to prevent it from happening. Also extremists tend to be skeptical towards any person, that tries to understand their networks.
Thats why most knowledge we have about extremist structures and mentalities comes from people, that aren‘t extremists anymore. In Germany we have around 33 people per year, that call the exit program for left wing extremism, 8 of whom people that actually want help. There aren‘t statistics for people, that aren‘t far-right extremists anymore, but the private Organization Exit counted alone in the state of Nordrhein-Westfalen 145 cases of people, that want to leave the far-right in 2015. Therefore we have a very limited pool of people, that want to give scientists information about internal structures and the interrelationship of violence.
Its just what I have experienced so far. Obviously there are some neonazis, that continue their „activism“, but most of them stop at some point or at least become less active, because they know that their car could go up in flames, if they attack a refugee.
There however are some people, that left the far right, that say that they were scared of attacks from political opponents and that this fear influenced their behavior and made them paranoid, because they didn‘t know, if there were people observing them, who those people were and how many antifascists potentially observed them.
If you are a far right extremist and hear stories about a group called „Antifa“, that sets shit on fire and attacks far right extremists its going to scare you. And if someone then publishes the job, the address and name of you or one of your fellow local neonazis and puts an Antifa-Symbol on the flyer, you are going to afraid. They can act as tough, as they want: The thought, that 20 masked people you know nothing about could hunt you down and beat you up in an dark alley, when you come back from home is fucking terrifying. It doesn‘t matter, if this danger is real. It only matters, weather they thinks its real.
Everything that happened is: there was one violent attack on a neonazi, there is a lot of news coverage, some guy collects informations about his local neonazis and prints some flyers. Thats enough to intimidate them for months and prevents attacks. You attack one far right extremist to prevent hundreds of attacks against innocent people.
They won‘t feel safe at their home, when their address is doxxed by some mysterious group they know nothing about and will probably have to move. They are going to have neither the money, nor he time to do more nazi shit after an „outing“ (thats what german antifascists call the doxxing of a neonazi).
They will probably lose their job after an outing. Their neighbors will mostly distance themself from them. They will have to move, if they want to feel safe. They will be kicked out of any association, party or organization (that isn‘t a neonazi group, obviously). Friends will distance themself from them. An outing is an incredible powerful and potentially destructive tool. This way we isolate neonazis from the rest of society and force them into their own echo chambers. This way we ensure, that actions hit neonazis instead of democratic right wingers, that by coincidence in the same association as the neonazis.
Then we apply pressure on individuals of said group until they can‘t stand it any longer and either move to a different town or lay down their political activities. This way we can regularly force their leaders and important figures of neonazi-subculture into an „apolitical“ life and therefore destabilize the far right.
Obviously its also important, that neonazis get an opportunity to reintegrate into society, if they lay down their ideology, but thats not my job. My job is to make them hate their life so much, that they develop the will to take the helping hand exit programs offer them.
It definitely is a kind of mob justice, but mob justice is the only thing you can do, if the state isn‘t doing its job of protecting people.
Tldr: neonazis are just going to stop harassing people, if there are consequences. If the state doesn‘t enforce these consequences citizens are either going to enforce consequences or get terrorized by the neonazis. Attacks are a great way of intimidating neonazis into leaving people life their lifes. If they are busy fighting you they don’t have time to attack more vulnerable groups.
he book how minds change talks about how people change their mind. I haven’t finished it yet, but it talks about some fringe groups like flat earthers and such.
It does mention that one of the ways people change their mind is horrible trauma
Like, usually facts and figures don’t do anything. Belief is social. Your beliefs will hinge a lot on your social groups. But if your whole life is shaken to the foundations, that can also loosen you up enough to reevaluate.
So, beating the shit out of a Nazi does have a chance of making them change their mind about being one.
When you go around breaking people’s arms at random intervals where you are your own judge and jury over a system you made up with no scientific basis, just with flimsy reasons sewn together, by intentionally giving people severe trauma (pretending that any psychistrist would not be totally horrified at thid BS)… you BECOME an aggressor. You are no better than the police. No more effective. Not s day closer to your goal.
Also trauma can often cause the exact opposite. Who allows you to take this risk for all of us in society? To go give a radicalized person more reason and fuel to be radicalized? So for every Nazi you “beat into becoming decent” (an impossible and demanding righteous power-trip fantasy), the next might be the next masshooter thanks to your arm breaking trauma. And you’ll have your Pikachu mouth all open when they go around shooting everyone with a single arm.
You system is inconsistent, unscientific, and really wish washy.
First off, it’s impossible for me to be on the same level as the corrupt police because I don’t have the institutional support that they do. That you don’t understand that is pretty damning.
Second, it’s not at random intervals. It’s predicated on Nazis. Literal “let’s do genocide” Nazis. It’s not wishy washy. It’s “we should beat up Nazis before they organize and do nazi stuff”
Your "oh they might respond by doing worse " fear is silly. Butterfly flaps it’s wings tier better not do anything because it could set something bad in motion. Tell you what, if you don’t do anything about the Nazis eventually there will definitely be death.
So you think thay my “fear” is silly even though we have a good picture of how trauma affects individuals, and somehow it is akin to doing nothing according to your analysis (has it occured to you there are non violent ways to counter neoNazis?)…
but you also think your random knee cap busting is fine, mature, and heroic?
Again… there is no such thing as a “radicalized” Nazi. If you do not understand what is meant by the term radicalized, I will be happy to explain it to you.
The term “radical” has a distinct meaning when it comes to the political - the term literally means “that which pertains to the root.” Ie, radical politics are politics which looks for the root causes of society’s ills. That is why radical politics is almost universally associated with left-wing politics. *Reactionary politics," on the other hand, is almost universally associated with right-wing politics - ie, ideologies that wants to prevent politics that attempts to cure the root causes of society’s ills. Right-wing ideology is always anti-radical - that is the entire point of right-wing ideology, has always been and always will be.
In other words… the only one way for a nazi to be a “radical nazi” - and that’s by becoming an ex-nazi.
When someone tries to convince me that the moon is made out of cheese I do not forget what cheese is just to spare the convincer’s feelings.
Your misuse of important political meanings doesn’t make it less misinformational just because it’s misuse is something you’ve heard done on mainstream media.
Even people writing papers on this use this word to mean that in this context.
I’m not denying other meanings exist. I’m just saying that you’re kinda being a jerk to get UMMM-ACTUALLYYY smart-points. In your head. They are only in your head my dude.
Bullshit. A Nazi whose arm gets broken outside the context of someone defending themselves against them only creates an angstier angrier and more radicalized Nazi. It’s more counter productive than people like to think.
Not necessarily. There are a lot of neonazis, that stopped their political activity after an attack and even if they continue to do nazi shit they will become more paranoid. What most militant antifascists are trying to do is to scare nazis out of politics. Its mostly psychological warfare
“not necessarily” is a very low bar to excuse violence which we know radicalizes people. If it’s mostly psychological then I don’t see the need for arm breaking.
And before people give me shit about this: I hate Nazis, neoNazis have bothered me and my family on a personal level in the 90’s. They made us feel unsafe, and continue to make me feel unsafe where I live now whenever I randomly encounter them.
But fucking hell if I saw someone attacking a white power skinhead and breaking their arm unprovoked, I will be on their side and I will defend them.
But to apply psychological pressure you need to set examples. Why would they stop if they don‘t have to deal with any consequences?
I am not arguing in favor of beating every neonazi you meet on the street. One violent attack every few months, that is published widely by the media is enough to remember them, that violence creates counter-violence and that they should think twice, if its worth getting their arm broken just to harass someone they don‘t like.
Still sounds counter productive and like some kind of mob justice to me. Do you have any science or analysis to support this?
No, I don‘t have scientific studies to back up my thesis. There most research towards right-wing or left-wing extremism focuses on the reasons or „reasons“ people have for radicalizing and how to prevent it from happening. Also extremists tend to be skeptical towards any person, that tries to understand their networks.
Thats why most knowledge we have about extremist structures and mentalities comes from people, that aren‘t extremists anymore. In Germany we have around 33 people per year, that call the exit program for left wing extremism, 8 of whom people that actually want help. There aren‘t statistics for people, that aren‘t far-right extremists anymore, but the private Organization Exit counted alone in the state of Nordrhein-Westfalen 145 cases of people, that want to leave the far-right in 2015. Therefore we have a very limited pool of people, that want to give scientists information about internal structures and the interrelationship of violence.
Its just what I have experienced so far. Obviously there are some neonazis, that continue their „activism“, but most of them stop at some point or at least become less active, because they know that their car could go up in flames, if they attack a refugee.
There however are some people, that left the far right, that say that they were scared of attacks from political opponents and that this fear influenced their behavior and made them paranoid, because they didn‘t know, if there were people observing them, who those people were and how many antifascists potentially observed them.
If you are a far right extremist and hear stories about a group called „Antifa“, that sets shit on fire and attacks far right extremists its going to scare you. And if someone then publishes the job, the address and name of you or one of your fellow local neonazis and puts an Antifa-Symbol on the flyer, you are going to afraid. They can act as tough, as they want: The thought, that 20 masked people you know nothing about could hunt you down and beat you up in an dark alley, when you come back from home is fucking terrifying. It doesn‘t matter, if this danger is real. It only matters, weather they thinks its real.
Everything that happened is: there was one violent attack on a neonazi, there is a lot of news coverage, some guy collects informations about his local neonazis and prints some flyers. Thats enough to intimidate them for months and prevents attacks. You attack one far right extremist to prevent hundreds of attacks against innocent people.
They won‘t feel safe at their home, when their address is doxxed by some mysterious group they know nothing about and will probably have to move. They are going to have neither the money, nor he time to do more nazi shit after an „outing“ (thats what german antifascists call the doxxing of a neonazi).
They will probably lose their job after an outing. Their neighbors will mostly distance themself from them. They will have to move, if they want to feel safe. They will be kicked out of any association, party or organization (that isn‘t a neonazi group, obviously). Friends will distance themself from them. An outing is an incredible powerful and potentially destructive tool. This way we isolate neonazis from the rest of society and force them into their own echo chambers. This way we ensure, that actions hit neonazis instead of democratic right wingers, that by coincidence in the same association as the neonazis.
Then we apply pressure on individuals of said group until they can‘t stand it any longer and either move to a different town or lay down their political activities. This way we can regularly force their leaders and important figures of neonazi-subculture into an „apolitical“ life and therefore destabilize the far right.
Obviously its also important, that neonazis get an opportunity to reintegrate into society, if they lay down their ideology, but thats not my job. My job is to make them hate their life so much, that they develop the will to take the helping hand exit programs offer them.
It definitely is a kind of mob justice, but mob justice is the only thing you can do, if the state isn‘t doing its job of protecting people.
Tldr: neonazis are just going to stop harassing people, if there are consequences. If the state doesn‘t enforce these consequences citizens are either going to enforce consequences or get terrorized by the neonazis. Attacks are a great way of intimidating neonazis into leaving people life their lifes. If they are busy fighting you they don’t have time to attack more vulnerable groups.
Edit: shortest left leaning comment
So in conclusion, no science, just your interpretation and gut feeling about some available literature that is not really saying what you want to say?
he book how minds change talks about how people change their mind. I haven’t finished it yet, but it talks about some fringe groups like flat earthers and such.
It does mention that one of the ways people change their mind is horrible trauma
Like, usually facts and figures don’t do anything. Belief is social. Your beliefs will hinge a lot on your social groups. But if your whole life is shaken to the foundations, that can also loosen you up enough to reevaluate.
So, beating the shit out of a Nazi does have a chance of making them change their mind about being one.
Sounds like an excuse to be violent. No better than a Nazi in my view. They also come up with excuses for using violence for “the good of the nation”.
Then your view is stupid. Like, “the aggressor is just as guilty as the victim” tier stupid.
When you go around breaking people’s arms at random intervals where you are your own judge and jury over a system you made up with no scientific basis, just with flimsy reasons sewn together, by intentionally giving people severe trauma (pretending that any psychistrist would not be totally horrified at thid BS)… you BECOME an aggressor. You are no better than the police. No more effective. Not s day closer to your goal.
Also trauma can often cause the exact opposite. Who allows you to take this risk for all of us in society? To go give a radicalized person more reason and fuel to be radicalized? So for every Nazi you “beat into becoming decent” (an impossible and demanding righteous power-trip fantasy), the next might be the next masshooter thanks to your arm breaking trauma. And you’ll have your Pikachu mouth all open when they go around shooting everyone with a single arm.
You system is inconsistent, unscientific, and really wish washy.
Not much better than the average corrupt police.
First off, it’s impossible for me to be on the same level as the corrupt police because I don’t have the institutional support that they do. That you don’t understand that is pretty damning.
Second, it’s not at random intervals. It’s predicated on Nazis. Literal “let’s do genocide” Nazis. It’s not wishy washy. It’s “we should beat up Nazis before they organize and do nazi stuff”
Your "oh they might respond by doing worse " fear is silly. Butterfly flaps it’s wings tier better not do anything because it could set something bad in motion. Tell you what, if you don’t do anything about the Nazis eventually there will definitely be death.
So you think thay my “fear” is silly even though we have a good picture of how trauma affects individuals, and somehow it is akin to doing nothing according to your analysis (has it occured to you there are non violent ways to counter neoNazis?)…
but you also think your random knee cap busting is fine, mature, and heroic?
We have to agree to disagree then.
There is no such thing as a “radicalized” Nazi - all right-wing ideology is anti-radical. It’s kind of the whole point of right-wing ideology, see?
MORE RADICALIZED, GEEZ PLEASE READ.
And also right wing ideology is anti-radical?? What??? Is this semantics?
No need to scream like an idiot.
Again… there is no such thing as a “radicalized” Nazi. If you do not understand what is meant by the term radicalized, I will be happy to explain it to you.
Sure, go ahead, explain it.
The term “radical” has a distinct meaning when it comes to the political - the term literally means “that which pertains to the root.” Ie, radical politics are politics which looks for the root causes of society’s ills. That is why radical politics is almost universally associated with left-wing politics. *Reactionary politics," on the other hand, is almost universally associated with right-wing politics - ie, ideologies that wants to prevent politics that attempts to cure the root causes of society’s ills. Right-wing ideology is always anti-radical - that is the entire point of right-wing ideology, has always been and always will be.
In other words… the only one way for a nazi to be a “radical nazi” - and that’s by becoming an ex-nazi.
Yeah but you knew full well that that is not what radicalized meant in sentence. /:
Givng off a lot of pedantic vibes here
When someone tries to convince me that the moon is made out of cheese I do not forget what cheese is just to spare the convincer’s feelings.
Your misuse of important political meanings doesn’t make it less misinformational just because it’s misuse is something you’ve heard done on mainstream media.
It sorta does actually. Language evolves and its extremely common to have entirely different colloquial and academic definitions
Hmmm. Do you always disambiguate word meanings by first taking them out of context and then applying some textbook definition you like?
I clearly meant this: https://www.jstor.org/stable/43783789
Even people writing papers on this use this word to mean that in this context.
I’m not denying other meanings exist. I’m just saying that you’re kinda being a jerk to get UMMM-ACTUALLYYY smart-points. In your head. They are only in your head my dude.
That’s like totally radical man.