It seems contradictory to me to say it has always been pursing genocide, when one of the elected politicians was moving in the other direction for years. A bit selective.
Perhaps we could look at the voter tallys in 1996, where Netanyahu won 1,501,023 to 1,471,566, and the events that were influencing the Israeli public at the time? It certainly doesn’t help when there’s 14 suicide bombings happening in Israel between 1993 and 1995 during the peace process. Being bombed generally does drive people towards militarism.
Regardless of the past, though, Israel is there now. With its nuclear arsenal, it will not be destroyed any time soon unless Iran somehow nukes it off the map through its missile defense. So, negotiation seems necessary.
The issue isn’t Netanyahu. Well he’s a compounding issue but the core problem is that everyone but the leftest of lefties stopped believing in the peace process after Rabin’s assassination. As the Haaretz said: Yigal Amir won. The right-wing approach to security, “antagonise Palestinians into submission”, never got challenged by anyone since Rabin’s death. Maybe it’ll now get challenged as October 7th happened on the right’s watch, so obviously they can’t provide security, but don’t expect the Israeli people to realise that in a fortnight, so far little is happening: The press is self-censoring because they know no Israeli wants to even look at what the IDF is doing in Gaza and the West Bank, protests are about Netanyahu’s corruption (which is pretty much the only thing distinguishing him and Gantz, not politics) as well as families of hostages complaining about the Kahanites being more interested in killing Arabs than getting their relatives back. It’s not (necessarily) the war they’re opposed to but the priorities.
when one of the elected politicians was moving in the other direction for years. A bit selective.
Yeah and what did it result in? Same thing as every other “negotiation” from the last 75 years, More Genocidal Nazis slowly taking over Palestinian land while the Palestinians have to wait for the “peaceful negotiations”.
The only difference between past israel and current israel is that current israel got so arrogant that they are forgetting to hide their Nazism. They are now flaunting what they have been doing for the past 75 years thinking themselves so much in the right that nobody will disagree with them.
Pretending that israel has ever had good-will to come to a peaceful conclusion is pure delusion. Israel is an Ethnostate deeply rooted in Apartheid. You cannot create an Ethnostate pecaefully just like the Nazis weren’t peacefully expanding their Lebensraum.
somehow, at some point in the conversation, the word “nuance” here has become double speak for Neo-liberal-style negotiations.
but yeah, big picture, it’s Nazi-O-Clock!
I’m not sure about this ethnostate claim, when over 20% of Israel’s citizens are of Arabic descent, and are not required to have Jewish heritage or faith. They can vote, own business and have the same legal protections as non-Arab citizens. These are not in Gaza or the West Bank, but living in Israel’s internationally recognized borders.
Unlike in pretty much all other countries in the World, Israel separates Nationality from Citizenship and there are more rights on the latter than on the former.
Further, uniquelly in the World Israel has different kinds of Citizenship such as Israeli Jew Citizienship and Israeli Arab Citizenship and the former has more rights than the latter.
As with every other piece of hasbara propaganda, those massive bollocks you’re parroting are a meaningless façade for external consumption that hides the reality of a State were Apartheid is so deeply entrenched that by law non-Jews have a second class kind of citizenship with less rights than Jews who have a different class of citizenship.
They’re both said to be Israelis (as there is but one nationality) and if one ignores all the rest they’re both as you say “Israel’s citizens”, they’re just de jure different kinds of Iraeli citiziens with different rights and, as I said in the beginning, most rights there are linked to Citizenship, not Nationality, so for example Israeli Arab Citizens can be denied the right to live in certain places whilst Israeli Jew Citizens cannot.
And to preempt the usual hasbara response to this disclosure: those Arabs don’t live there because it’s such a great situation, they still live there even though they are second class citizens because they’ve always lived there as they were born there on what was their family’s land before it was stollen from them.
This idea of a difference between nationality and citizenship is admittedly new to me. Can you provide a citation to a reputable source that explains it in more detail?
Israelis are not alone in using propaganda, so a neutral source, preferably. Or the law itself, I can run it through a translator.
Actually I was a bit wrong (I had been told this by others but only research the details now to provide you with references) so here are the corrections:
First I had it the other way around - it’s the nationality that has Jewish and non-Jewish, not citizenship. Specifically Israeli nationality is only for Jews and it’s for any Jew independently of were they are born source
Second, it’s not all Arabs that are discriminated by law when it it comes to citizenship, it’s only some who, although born in the territory of Israel are seldom given Israeli Citizenship when they ask. This applies not only to the occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza but, more shockingly, Jerusalem source. This is why once in a while you get news of Arabs being evicted from their houses in Jerusalem: they were never actually given Israeli citizenship even though they were born in Israel and if they apply they are unlikelly to get it as per Israeli law they have no right of birth to it.
And then of course there are plenty of sources refering to Israeli Arabs being treated as second class citizens, such as this Bloomberg article
PS: I also remembered how some of the details I listed above, such as how Israeli Arabs can be refused license to live in certain places, came from a Documentary I saw on TV years ago. If I remember it correctly it’s done via a scheme which is a bit like “housing associations” but for for larger areas (towns?) were people have to apply to them to be allowed to go live there and in many places Israeli Arabs are simply never accepted so they can’t go live in those places.
That Haaretz article is saddening. I cannot in good faith blame Israel for not giving citizenship to people who do not want it and don’t apply for it, but reading some of the excuses they gave for denying applications is telling.
No, there are certainly innocents in Gaza. However, there are also innocents in Israel. You may have chosen your side, but I am not fighting in this war. Frankly, it’s consistently been too difficult to determine the truth.
edit: Actually, that’s not true. I find I do get involved in the information side of the conflict, except I have to consistently fight against both of the sides. It’s very troubling.
Last time I checked you were claiming israel is not an Apartheid state so you might want to work on that information thing a bit more before providing insightful comments
If you can find me an unbiased assessment of it, from people that acknowledge Israel’s claims to exist by its 1967 borders and for people of Jewish descent to move to within those 1967 borders if they want, I happily will.
It means I’ll read any information about Israeli Apartheid policies from any Zionist-neutral source. I will, however, be very wary of anti-Zionist sources or pro-Zionist sources, unless the source is being critical of its own position.
I’m not foolish enough to think there’s a side in the war that won’t lie.
I understand it is a high standard, but it’s the same goalpost I had to begin with. I’m neither pro-Israeli, nor pro-Palestinian, I’m just loyal to good factuality as best as I can find it, and I’m loyal to peaceful co-existence and a two-state solution, preferably by the 1967 borders.
It seems contradictory to me to say it has always been pursing genocide, when one of the elected politicians was moving in the other direction for years. A bit selective.
Perhaps we could look at the voter tallys in 1996, where Netanyahu won 1,501,023 to 1,471,566, and the events that were influencing the Israeli public at the time? It certainly doesn’t help when there’s 14 suicide bombings happening in Israel between 1993 and 1995 during the peace process. Being bombed generally does drive people towards militarism.
Regardless of the past, though, Israel is there now. With its nuclear arsenal, it will not be destroyed any time soon unless Iran somehow nukes it off the map through its missile defense. So, negotiation seems necessary.
The issue isn’t Netanyahu. Well he’s a compounding issue but the core problem is that everyone but the leftest of lefties stopped believing in the peace process after Rabin’s assassination. As the Haaretz said: Yigal Amir won. The right-wing approach to security, “antagonise Palestinians into submission”, never got challenged by anyone since Rabin’s death. Maybe it’ll now get challenged as October 7th happened on the right’s watch, so obviously they can’t provide security, but don’t expect the Israeli people to realise that in a fortnight, so far little is happening: The press is self-censoring because they know no Israeli wants to even look at what the IDF is doing in Gaza and the West Bank, protests are about Netanyahu’s corruption (which is pretty much the only thing distinguishing him and Gantz, not politics) as well as families of hostages complaining about the Kahanites being more interested in killing Arabs than getting their relatives back. It’s not (necessarily) the war they’re opposed to but the priorities.
Yeah and what did it result in? Same thing as every other “negotiation” from the last 75 years, More Genocidal Nazis slowly taking over Palestinian land while the Palestinians have to wait for the “peaceful negotiations”.
The only difference between past israel and current israel is that current israel got so arrogant that they are forgetting to hide their Nazism. They are now flaunting what they have been doing for the past 75 years thinking themselves so much in the right that nobody will disagree with them.
Pretending that israel has ever had good-will to come to a peaceful conclusion is pure delusion. Israel is an Ethnostate deeply rooted in Apartheid. You cannot create an Ethnostate pecaefully just like the Nazis weren’t peacefully expanding their Lebensraum.
nuance won’t hurt you, I promise <3
Do we look at the Holocaust with nuance as well? Should the Jews have tried to negotiate with Adolf Hitler?
When someone decides to do Ethinc Cleansing to create an Ethnostate it’s Nazi-O-Clock. All nuance goes out the window.
somehow, at some point in the conversation, the word “nuance” here has become double speak for Neo-liberal-style negotiations. but yeah, big picture, it’s Nazi-O-Clock!
I’m not sure about this ethnostate claim, when over 20% of Israel’s citizens are of Arabic descent, and are not required to have Jewish heritage or faith. They can vote, own business and have the same legal protections as non-Arab citizens. These are not in Gaza or the West Bank, but living in Israel’s internationally recognized borders.
Unlike in pretty much all other countries in the World, Israel separates Nationality from Citizenship and there are more rights on the latter than on the former.
Further, uniquelly in the World Israel has different kinds of Citizenship such as Israeli Jew Citizienship and Israeli Arab Citizenship and the former has more rights than the latter.
As with every other piece of hasbara propaganda, those massive bollocks you’re parroting are a meaningless façade for external consumption that hides the reality of a State were Apartheid is so deeply entrenched that by law non-Jews have a second class kind of citizenship with less rights than Jews who have a different class of citizenship.
They’re both said to be Israelis (as there is but one nationality) and if one ignores all the rest they’re both as you say “Israel’s citizens”, they’re just de jure different kinds of Iraeli citiziens with different rights and, as I said in the beginning, most rights there are linked to Citizenship, not Nationality, so for example Israeli Arab Citizens can be denied the right to live in certain places whilst Israeli Jew Citizens cannot.
And to preempt the usual hasbara response to this disclosure: those Arabs don’t live there because it’s such a great situation, they still live there even though they are second class citizens because they’ve always lived there as they were born there on what was their family’s land before it was stollen from them.
This idea of a difference between nationality and citizenship is admittedly new to me. Can you provide a citation to a reputable source that explains it in more detail?
Israelis are not alone in using propaganda, so a neutral source, preferably. Or the law itself, I can run it through a translator.
Actually I was a bit wrong (I had been told this by others but only research the details now to provide you with references) so here are the corrections:
And then of course there are plenty of sources refering to Israeli Arabs being treated as second class citizens, such as this Bloomberg article
PS: I also remembered how some of the details I listed above, such as how Israeli Arabs can be refused license to live in certain places, came from a Documentary I saw on TV years ago. If I remember it correctly it’s done via a scheme which is a bit like “housing associations” but for for larger areas (towns?) were people have to apply to them to be allowed to go live there and in many places Israeli Arabs are simply never accepted so they can’t go live in those places.
Thank you.
That Haaretz article is saddening. I cannot in good faith blame Israel for not giving citizenship to people who do not want it and don’t apply for it, but reading some of the excuses they gave for denying applications is telling.
Here guys, have this banana 🍌 reward for a civil and informative discussion thread.
And there it is. From “israel wasn’t always trying to steal land” turns into “well israel not really an Apartheid state”.
Three comments further and I’m going to read about how there are no innocents in Gaza.
No, there are certainly innocents in Gaza. However, there are also innocents in Israel. You may have chosen your side, but I am not fighting in this war. Frankly, it’s consistently been too difficult to determine the truth.
edit: Actually, that’s not true. I find I do get involved in the information side of the conflict, except I have to consistently fight against both of the sides. It’s very troubling.
Last time I checked you were claiming israel is not an Apartheid state so you might want to work on that information thing a bit more before providing insightful comments
deleted by creator
If you can find me an unbiased assessment of it, from people that acknowledge Israel’s claims to exist by its 1967 borders and for people of Jewish descent to move to within those 1967 borders if they want, I happily will.
I have no idea what this comment means but the goalpost is floating 500 feet in the air right now.
It means I’ll read any information about Israeli Apartheid policies from any Zionist-neutral source. I will, however, be very wary of anti-Zionist sources or pro-Zionist sources, unless the source is being critical of its own position.
I’m not foolish enough to think there’s a side in the war that won’t lie.
I understand it is a high standard, but it’s the same goalpost I had to begin with. I’m neither pro-Israeli, nor pro-Palestinian, I’m just loyal to good factuality as best as I can find it, and I’m loyal to peaceful co-existence and a two-state solution, preferably by the 1967 borders.