People who think rather than be mindless tribalists can approve of a specific action of a group without approving of their ideology or other actions of theirs.
For example I approve of what the Biden Adminstration has done towards Ukraine whilst not approving of their ideology that puts the Democratic control of people’s life in a nation (i.e. the vote that controls the leaders of the state who make decisions for how the state acts for the good of the many) below Oligarchic control (I.e. Money decides) by defending that the state should not regulate anything that might impact Money or “interfere in the Market”, and do not approve of their unconditional support of the quasi-Nazis know as Zionists even in the middle of them committing a Genocide.
One has to wonder if the endless posts by this user constantly trying to misportray “lefties” as basically all “commies” (including a cartoon the other day where the leftie character wore a red shirt with a hammer and a sickle just in case we were in any doubt what he thought “lefties” were) isn’t very purposeful tribalist propaganda from a very specific American Political Tribe that passes itself for left over there whilst being pro-Oligarch hard-right.
Certainly this endless hammering of the same drum has a very similar stink as the kind of argumentation we get from mindless Trumpists (pre-made generalizations about other people presented as “I know best what they are [even though I’ve never been anywhere close to that political side]”), clearly driven by the same mindless tribalism and structured as broad strokes group slandering Propaganda (it’s hard to stroke more broadly than the entire Left) only this messaging is coming from the pro-Oligarch American Right rather than from the Fascist American Right.
If that’s you intention, you’re not at all being clear in making the distinction.
A lot of your criticism is against doing things which can just as easilly be the natural conclusions of having run of the mill Leftwing or even just Humanist principles (say: “though shall not kill tens of thousands of children due to their etnicity or help doing so” or “politics should aim for the greatest good for the greatest number in preference to making an aggregated Economic number larger”) as they can be the mindless idiological parrotings from actual “commies”.
For example, one needs not be an instinctive pro-Russia tankie playing mind games to somehow support Trump, to state that voting for somebody activelly supporting an etnic genocide being commited by the supporters of a quasi-Nazi ideology would be too much for anybody with Humanist principles: absolutelly normal general Humanist Principles such as “though shall not kill innocents such as children” (which aren’t at exclusive of the Left) explain that posture of not voting for any candidate.
I mean, I’ve seen posts of yours that I totally agree with (because they align with my Principles), but in anything which is to do with Political Factions, in my view you totally abandon principled thinking and just go full on tribalist often passing the impression that you have the very same kind of “everybody has a tribe” expectation as the Far-Right muppets.
Might want to consider that many people don’t have Tribes (were people blindly follow the chief and untinkingly parrot the tribal slogans), and instead they have Principles, so support or not things based on how much those things align with their Principles not with any Party Line.
My impression here in Lemmy is that there are a lot more Lefties By Principle than Members Of Self-Proclaimed Leftwing Tribes, though there are certainly a lot more of the latter than in the average English-speaking social media.
For example, one needs not be an instinctive pro-Russia tankie playing mind games to somehow support Trump,
I hope you mean ‘or somehow support Trump’.
to state that voting for somebody activelly supporting an etnic genocide being commited by the supporters of a quasi-Nazi ideology would be too much for anybody with Humanist principles: absolutelly normal general Humanist Principles such as “though shall not kill innocents such as children” (which aren’t at exclusive of the Left) explain that posture of not voting for any candidate.
And I call that position out for what it is. Tacit support for fascism.
I’m opposed to the Palestinian genocide. It’s not like I don’t get that. If it were up to me, Israel wouldn’t get one red cent from any democratic nation.
But opting for the greater evil doesn’t save anyone. Contributing to a Trump victory - and yes, choosing inaction is an action - will endanger many millions more without even the hope of changing what is supposedly being protested against - indeed, actually making it worse.
And, you know, me and mine? We’re not at the top of the target list, but we’re definitely not at the bottom either. So I’d like to not end up marching into an extermination camp because someone wanted to feel ‘principled’ when they refused to vote for the lesser evil who will continue democracy and not initiate any new genocides. It’s deeply frustrating to me when people who claim to care about minorities won’t do the least damn thing, a check in a box, to use their very real power as citizens to help avert a very serious situation. What else is that to be seen as, other than passive support for sending me and my family into the death camps?
I mean, I’m honestly not that attached to my own life. But my family I love. Some of them, at least. And I would very much like it if other minorities in the US weren’t genocided either. If that’s not a reason to get fucking furious at people doing nothing when they could be doing something at minimal fucking cost to them, I don’t know what is.
Fuck, you want to overthrow the system? I’m not stopping you. But if you aren’t doing it in the next six months, check the fucking box for those of us who have to live through this shite.
I mean, I’ve seen posts of yours that I totally agree with (because they align with my Principles), but in anything which is to do with Political Factions, in my view you totally abandon principled thinking and just go full on tribalist often passing the impression that you have the very same kind of “everybody has a tribe” expectation as the Far-Right muppets.
I mean, everyone does have a tribe, but that tribe isn’t always relevant to political discussion. Most of the time when I’m bitching, it’s about people whose principles should nominally align against a certain action or particularly vile faction, but align with it instead for some godforsaken reason (usually, a mixture of ‘They oppose Tribe I Hate so they must be good’ and ‘The other members of My Tribe say this and I want to reinforce their positions’).
My impression here in Lemmy is that there are a lot more Lefties By Principle than Members Of Self-Proclaimed Leftwing Tribes, though there are certainly a lot more of the latter than in the average English-speaking social media.
I think you put too much emphasis on the label and not the tribe. People in Lemmy are as tribal as any other - the difference is that their ‘tribe’ has more to do with their social circles than their self-applied political labels.
Might want to consider that many people don’t have Tribes (were people blindly follow the chief and untinkingly parrot the tribal slogans), and instead they have Principles, so support or not things based on how much those things align with their Principles not with any Party Line.
The superiority complex is strong with this one. Do you truly believe you, and the people that agree with you, of course, are the only ones with principles? lol. (Also why did you capitalize it?)
“Seek first to understand, then to be understood.” I don’t think you actually understand their position and should be asking more questions instead of assuming so much, especially when you admit you don’t understand why they seem to go against their own principles (you might have to convince yourself you’re not that special beforehand).
People who think rather than be mindless tribalists can approve of a specific action of a group without approving of their ideology or other actions of theirs.
For example I approve of what the Biden Adminstration has done towards Ukraine whilst not approving of their ideology that puts the Democratic control of people’s life in a nation (i.e. the vote that controls the leaders of the state who make decisions for how the state acts for the good of the many) below Oligarchic control (I.e. Money decides) by defending that the state should not regulate anything that might impact Money or “interfere in the Market”, and do not approve of their unconditional support of the quasi-Nazis know as Zionists even in the middle of them committing a Genocide.
One has to wonder if the endless posts by this user constantly trying to misportray “lefties” as basically all “commies” (including a cartoon the other day where the leftie character wore a red shirt with a hammer and a sickle just in case we were in any doubt what he thought “lefties” were) isn’t very purposeful tribalist propaganda from a very specific American Political Tribe that passes itself for left over there whilst being pro-Oligarch hard-right.
Certainly this endless hammering of the same drum has a very similar stink as the kind of argumentation we get from mindless Trumpists (pre-made generalizations about other people presented as “I know best what they are [even though I’ve never been anywhere close to that political side]”), clearly driven by the same mindless tribalism and structured as broad strokes group slandering Propaganda (it’s hard to stroke more broadly than the entire Left) only this messaging is coming from the pro-Oligarch American Right rather than from the Fascist American Right.
Oh, is that what I’m trying to do? Here I thought I was addressing a specific subset of leftists that is common here on Lemmy.
If that’s you intention, you’re not at all being clear in making the distinction.
A lot of your criticism is against doing things which can just as easilly be the natural conclusions of having run of the mill Leftwing or even just Humanist principles (say: “though shall not kill tens of thousands of children due to their etnicity or help doing so” or “politics should aim for the greatest good for the greatest number in preference to making an aggregated Economic number larger”) as they can be the mindless idiological parrotings from actual “commies”.
For example, one needs not be an instinctive pro-Russia tankie playing mind games to somehow support Trump, to state that voting for somebody activelly supporting an etnic genocide being commited by the supporters of a quasi-Nazi ideology would be too much for anybody with Humanist principles: absolutelly normal general Humanist Principles such as “though shall not kill innocents such as children” (which aren’t at exclusive of the Left) explain that posture of not voting for any candidate.
I mean, I’ve seen posts of yours that I totally agree with (because they align with my Principles), but in anything which is to do with Political Factions, in my view you totally abandon principled thinking and just go full on tribalist often passing the impression that you have the very same kind of “everybody has a tribe” expectation as the Far-Right muppets.
Might want to consider that many people don’t have Tribes (were people blindly follow the chief and untinkingly parrot the tribal slogans), and instead they have Principles, so support or not things based on how much those things align with their Principles not with any Party Line.
My impression here in Lemmy is that there are a lot more Lefties By Principle than Members Of Self-Proclaimed Leftwing Tribes, though there are certainly a lot more of the latter than in the average English-speaking social media.
I hope you mean ‘or somehow support Trump’.
And I call that position out for what it is. Tacit support for fascism.
I’m opposed to the Palestinian genocide. It’s not like I don’t get that. If it were up to me, Israel wouldn’t get one red cent from any democratic nation.
But opting for the greater evil doesn’t save anyone. Contributing to a Trump victory - and yes, choosing inaction is an action - will endanger many millions more without even the hope of changing what is supposedly being protested against - indeed, actually making it worse.
And, you know, me and mine? We’re not at the top of the target list, but we’re definitely not at the bottom either. So I’d like to not end up marching into an extermination camp because someone wanted to feel ‘principled’ when they refused to vote for the lesser evil who will continue democracy and not initiate any new genocides. It’s deeply frustrating to me when people who claim to care about minorities won’t do the least damn thing, a check in a box, to use their very real power as citizens to help avert a very serious situation. What else is that to be seen as, other than passive support for sending me and my family into the death camps?
I mean, I’m honestly not that attached to my own life. But my family I love. Some of them, at least. And I would very much like it if other minorities in the US weren’t genocided either. If that’s not a reason to get fucking furious at people doing nothing when they could be doing something at minimal fucking cost to them, I don’t know what is.
Fuck, you want to overthrow the system? I’m not stopping you. But if you aren’t doing it in the next six months, check the fucking box for those of us who have to live through this shite.
I mean, everyone does have a tribe, but that tribe isn’t always relevant to political discussion. Most of the time when I’m bitching, it’s about people whose principles should nominally align against a certain action or particularly vile faction, but align with it instead for some godforsaken reason (usually, a mixture of ‘They oppose Tribe I Hate so they must be good’ and ‘The other members of My Tribe say this and I want to reinforce their positions’).
I think you put too much emphasis on the label and not the tribe. People in Lemmy are as tribal as any other - the difference is that their ‘tribe’ has more to do with their social circles than their self-applied political labels.
The superiority complex is strong with this one. Do you truly believe you, and the people that agree with you, of course, are the only ones with principles? lol. (Also why did you capitalize it?)
“Seek first to understand, then to be understood.” I don’t think you actually understand their position and should be asking more questions instead of assuming so much, especially when you admit you don’t understand why they seem to go against their own principles (you might have to convince yourself you’re not that special beforehand).