“We can’t fight because they might fight back” is a poor political strategy and will guarantee that they fight you while you lose because everyone knows you don’t have their backs.
The Dems are incapable of doing that fighting at the moment. Their strategy is to, once in power, begin the excuse-making for why they can’t do anything. They are, however, lying to you. They pick someone like Manchin to be the whipping boy and put zero pressure on him, run no party strategy of, “we will get that done because we won’t support candidates that fall out of line”, i.e. a strategy that actually creates the promised policies over a period of multiple election cycles.
Sometimes this is because the policy is seen as a useful wedge issue for getting votes. More useful to them than actually creating the policy.
Either way, the Democrats will continue to be the party of capitulation and excuse-making while conditions degrade if their grassroots members don’t organize to demand change and provide consequences when their demands aren’t met. The logic you’re currently following is the polar opposite of that and will ensure the status quo downward spiral.
Honestly, the same could probably be said for Republicans as well, though they do occasionally get stuff done.
So why do people keep supporting the stupid twp-party system? If every election is so important that we can’t vote third party, when will we end the two-party stranglehold?
Why are you burning down the house that you’re going to buy back in two years?
This was talking about libertarian party infighting, but it applies to the two major parties as well. Why mess up the government that you’re going to have majority control of in the next cycle? Likewise, why expand the power of a position that’s going to change hands soon?
Republicans do the same kind of thing, yeah, but they throw some red meat to their base every so often. And over time they have created enough true believers in what was originally a cynical wedge issue that they are forced to create the policy. Dems haven’t created those true believers that demand policy and throw a fit when they don’t get it. They teach their constituents to repeat their excuses. Look at how weak they all are in response to the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade. An organized constituency that actually cared about the policies would be rioting and demanding the court be delegitimized. Some of the younger people had the energy and approach for that but were tut-tutted by everyone up the chain. “The discourse” was immediately restricted to just, “Vote Blue”. They aren’t even primarying pro-life Dems, lol.
So why do people keep supporting the stupid twp-party system? If every election is so important that we can’t vote third party, when will we end the two-party stranglehold?
Political education is very poor in the United States. Not only are people uneducated in basic political strategy or the core topics of politics itself, they are constantly inculcated with fairy tales from mass media. Not just the Kabuki of news television and various newspapers, but entertainment media that teaches lessons about being a principled loser fighting the good fight rather than organizing to win against forces that actually oppose your interests.
Americans only gain political education by attempting to get more involved and seeing how the sausage is made. Learning from others with more experience, and discovering that there is an entire library of political education out there that has been suppressed, by sheer volume of samey pap “political” books, from being on everyone’s basic curriculum.
There are more ways to describe the forces at work, but the key issue is that Americans learn a false consciousness that is repeatedly pounded into their heads so that they cannot even understand that, for example, criticizing a reactionary Democrat does not mean you are a Trump-loving Republican.
The positive side of this is that we can use organization and education to move past this. If you can get someone to join a reading group, 9 out of 10 times they will learn, they will discard wrong ideas, and they will advance in their consciousness.
Re: third party, I think it’s fine for raising consciousness and being part of an organized group, but we should always remember that the electoral system itself was set up by slaveowners that just wanted to keep their own money and power and that it continues to be an expression of ruling class interests. You can exhaust yourself just trying to get ballot access and the other parties will just change the rules anyways once you start doing well. There are other ways to build and yield power than entering legislatures and we shouldn’t loss focus on them.
This was talking about libertarian party infighting, but it applies to the two major parties as well. Why mess up the government that you’re going to have majority control of in the next cycle? Likewise, why expand the power of a position that’s going to change hands soon?
Just say no.
The reason to expand the power would be to achieve the promised policy goals of a political program, of course. That they prefer to make excuses reveals exactly how much they prioritize those goals. They are players on a team that is more beholden to corporations’ wishes than any premised policy that would save millions of lives. They just need you to not realize that so you’ll keep voting them in.
Why? The ruling honestly made sense, Roe v Wade was based on a concept of privacy through a convoluted reading of the Constitution. It was a crappy, sketchy ruling.
What should have happened is a federal law ensuring a right to abortion access (or at least a law establishing the right to privacy that Roe v Wade assumed existed). That should have happened way back when Roe v Wade was originally being considered. But Congress is disfunctional and doesn’t actually seem interested in solving important problems.
You can exhaust yourself just trying to get ballot access and the other parties will just change the rules anyways once you start doing well
Sure. But if enough people actually notice it and care, politicians who do that won’t do as well in reelection. The deck is already stacked against third parties (even the “private” debates use the same 15% polling BS the debate commission used), why not push politicians to make it more obvious.
Surely at some point people will demand change, we just need to be vocal and ever present so people get riled up about it.
The point isn’t to get elected as a third party, it’s to steal enough of the votes that the two major parties need to adjust their policies to pull votes from them. Trump promising to free Ross Ulbricht is a small example of that (I doubt he will though).
There are other ways to build and yield power than entering legislatures and we shouldn’t loss focus on them.
Yes, and that’s through forcing candidates to adjust policy positions to get enough votes to win. A great way to do that is media attention for fringe parties, and another is being vocal between elections (contacting reps, attending legislative hearings, protests, etc). Be loud, consistently.
Unless you live in a swing state/district (unlikely), your vote is better spent protesting the duopoly. I personally don’t care what third party you pick, just vote for anyone other than the two major parties. Write someone in if you have to, the point is to reduce their votes.
Why? The ruling honestly made sense, Roe v Wade was based on a concept of privacy through a convoluted reading of the Constitution. It was a crappy, sketchy ruling.
To be blunt, so that people don’t make arguments like this that assume the court is about calling balls and strikes. It is, in reality, an unelected political organ whose decisions are routinely full of absolute bullshit that is just cover for whatever a given justice personality preferred politically. As a consequence, you can come to two conclusions:
The Supreme Court can decide basically whatever it wants and just add some legal potpourri in top and should therefore be treated as a political organ subject to democratic norms. Expand and pack the court so that it becomes closer to matching the results of elections. Demand impeachment. Etc etc.
Start a project to reject the legitimacy of the court itself, as it is an unelected body making political decisions with very little basis in “the rules” for why it has basically any of its current powers.
What should have happened is a federal law ensuring a right to abortion access (or at least a law establishing the right to privacy that Roe v Wade assumed existed). That should have happened way back when Roe v Wade was originally being considered. But Congress is disfunctional and doesn’t actually seem interested in solving important problems.
Congress is functioning exactly as intended. There is a great and useful quote from Stafford Beer where he says there is, “no point in claiming that the purpose of a system is to do what it constantly fails to do.” There is what we are told the system does and there is what it actually does. At some point one has to acknowledge that what it actually does is closer to its real purpose than the stories told about its purpose. In the case of legislating abortion rights, there are many layers to the political system that demonstrate this. You are right that Democrats should have simply written it into law. Obama even promised this in 2008, they enjoyed full control of the House and Senate. Then he quietly announced that it wasn’t a priority.
This demonstrates that the party doesn’t really care. They are made up of people who will always have abortion access themselves and who are social climbers playing a game that serves ruling class interests.
But there is more to it than that. Why was there no fear of backlash, particularly from women’s groups (not excluding trans people, but the orgs at the time were focused on cis women)? Why didn’t Obama lose the next election? It was just a normal soft “thud”, completely ignored. You could say it seemed like Roe v. Wade was enough protection, that there was no sense of urgency or threat. This was false even then, because many states had de facto banned abortion. But surely this means that there is no serious political project that prioritizes this, and we can see this bearing out right now. The federal protection is gone. Deaths during and leading up to pregnancy are ramping up in the states that were ready to go right when the decision was made.
And there is, basically, no political project to show for it. The possibility of organizing for abortion rights had the life sucked out of it by, “vote blue no matter who”. The party has plainly telegraphed what abortion is to them: a wedge issue to whip votes, not a policy to legislate.
Sure. But if enough people actually notice it and care, politicians who do that won’t do as well in reelection. The deck is already stacked against third parties (even the “private” debates use the same 15% polling BS the debate commission used), why not push politicians to make it more obvious.
This is why it’s important to make this part of a wider, sustainable political program that focuses more on other tactics. You can exhaust the entire party just getting ballot access. That means you can’t do anything else. And for what? So that a different party can pretend to hold your position and continue to not act? This will be entirely unsustainable, you won’t be able to retain people in such a project, and this is born out by the parties that operate this way, e.g. the Greens. They don’t have a sustainable model for political engagement.
Elections should still be used but we should prevent burning out on a project that will, at best, amount to “we can pull him left”.
Surely at some point people will demand change, we just need to be vocal and ever present so people get riled up about it.
At some point people will become so frustrated that they lash out. They will not become organized or politically educated by default. There is actually no guarantee that they will make a demand, let alone one they can back up with leverage. It’s our job to organize the people before and while they have this energy and to adopt and teach correct political positions so that when it comes time to act, we have unity.
For example, take the George Floyd protests. They began as riots in response to America’s endemic and violent racialized policing and criminal punishment system. People rose up and demanded change. But they were also disorganized. Different groups jumped in to try and direct the response to their interests. There were Al Sharptons mollifying it into another Vote Blue kind of nonsense. There were liberals that brought megaphones and convinced people to submit to police and get arrested for civil disobedience photo ops. There were organizations with a tokenizing and paper thin understanding of identity who tried to divide up the protest into black decision makers vs. everyone else. There were people who were good at tactics but had no strategy into which to insert it. When demands were made, there were Democratic politicians coming in and making promises to do something 6 months later. This was sometimes enough to get people to go home.Guess what they didn’t do 6 months later, lol. Actually, guess what they did do 6 months later: hire more cops, increase the police budget.
All of the energy was there, the cause was just. The leverage was there. But it was almost all unrealized because the people were unorganized and not politically educated. They did not have unity of action. They did not identity the pitfalls of bourgeois politicians’ promises and delay tactics. They did not have a larger project into which to plug people and create a sustainable system of organization-action-rest. They did not have efficient decision-making structures.
Those are the elements necessary to create a viable political organ in this environment. It requires long-term organizing work so that when lightning strikes, you already have your party and your coalition and nobody is taking it over just because they have a megaphone or a false promise.
Anyways the positive side of this is that we know how to build this. It’s to gain political consciousness through reading socialist and anarchist materials (and more, of course) and to join an organization in that vein. Food Not Bombs is a nice one to join if you aren’t sure what exact kind of group you’d want to be in. They make food for people. But their members are often in other organizations as well and you can start to get connected in the local organizing scene. Make positive connections. Then eventually join a more organized group. Other orgs are also fine, I’m just trying to make it simple.
Yes, and that’s through forcing candidates to adjust policy positions to get enough votes to win. A great way to do that is media attention for fringe parties, and another is being vocal between elections (contacting reps, attending legislative hearings, protests, etc). Be loud, consistently.
They just treat that like a PR problem. They literally just spend some more cash from business owners to hire one or two PR firms. It nearly always works because the group making demands is too disorganized to have any real leverage.
There is a lot more that can be done to achieve political goals. Direct action has always been necessary for everything big, in fact. MLK didn’t just say, “be loud”, he helped organize actions that shut down towns, streets, etc. When he was murdered he was working on coordinating strikes with labor groups.
Unless you live in a swing state/district (unlikely), your vote is better spent protesting the duopoly. I personally don’t care what third party you pick, just vote for anyone other than the two major parties. Write someone in if you have to, the point is to reduce their votes.
For president, I recommend that people vote uncommitted, or whatever the pro-Palestine protest vote campaign becomes for the general election. And to also take those first steps of becoming politically engaged beyond the intentionally limited system of bourgeois electoralism.
I’m not on board with socialism, at least not in the systemic sense most people refer to. I’m in favor of co-ops and private unions, but not government-level policy. I’m also not in favor of anarchism, though I think we generally need less government than more.
But the great thing about grassroots, single-issue endeavors is that we don’t need to agree on the big picture, we only need to agree on that single issue. For MLK Jr., the message was clear: civil rights regardless of skin color. That united people regardless of political leanings, and being consistently loud about that single issue is what resulted in success. Yeah he wanted to go further (and I probably disagree on those goals), but he focused the civil rights movement on that one goal.
We need that same type of thing today. We need a figurehead that will focus on single issues that cross the partisan divide, and we need to keep pushing on it until we get it. Eliminating FPTP is a good option. The Palestinian issue would be a bit harder since it’s not our war and both parties seem intent on supporting Israel. I’m in favor of either though.
We really need another MLK Jr., and unfortunately I don’t see anyone stepping up. So the next best option is to keep making the conditions favorable for that. Force politicians to address the issue, and more people will get fired up, and maybe the next MLK will step up. I’m not that person, but maybe I can run for office and stir the pot a bit.
And then the next conservative President will pack it again, and the Supreme Court will become a joke. There’s a reason norms exist…
There is literally no downside because the Supreme Court is already a completely bought joke.
You say that, but it can always get worse. Let’s not encourage that…
“We can’t fight because they might fight back” is a poor political strategy and will guarantee that they fight you while you lose because everyone knows you don’t have their backs.
The Dems are incapable of doing that fighting at the moment. Their strategy is to, once in power, begin the excuse-making for why they can’t do anything. They are, however, lying to you. They pick someone like Manchin to be the whipping boy and put zero pressure on him, run no party strategy of, “we will get that done because we won’t support candidates that fall out of line”, i.e. a strategy that actually creates the promised policies over a period of multiple election cycles.
Sometimes this is because the policy is seen as a useful wedge issue for getting votes. More useful to them than actually creating the policy.
Either way, the Democrats will continue to be the party of capitulation and excuse-making while conditions degrade if their grassroots members don’t organize to demand change and provide consequences when their demands aren’t met. The logic you’re currently following is the polar opposite of that and will ensure the status quo downward spiral.
Here’s how I see it:
Honestly, the same could probably be said for Republicans as well, though they do occasionally get stuff done.
So why do people keep supporting the stupid twp-party system? If every election is so important that we can’t vote third party, when will we end the two-party stranglehold?
I recently watched an interview of Larry Sharpe by Sabby Sabs where he said,
This was talking about libertarian party infighting, but it applies to the two major parties as well. Why mess up the government that you’re going to have majority control of in the next cycle? Likewise, why expand the power of a position that’s going to change hands soon?
Just say no.
Republicans do the same kind of thing, yeah, but they throw some red meat to their base every so often. And over time they have created enough true believers in what was originally a cynical wedge issue that they are forced to create the policy. Dems haven’t created those true believers that demand policy and throw a fit when they don’t get it. They teach their constituents to repeat their excuses. Look at how weak they all are in response to the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade. An organized constituency that actually cared about the policies would be rioting and demanding the court be delegitimized. Some of the younger people had the energy and approach for that but were tut-tutted by everyone up the chain. “The discourse” was immediately restricted to just, “Vote Blue”. They aren’t even primarying pro-life Dems, lol.
Political education is very poor in the United States. Not only are people uneducated in basic political strategy or the core topics of politics itself, they are constantly inculcated with fairy tales from mass media. Not just the Kabuki of news television and various newspapers, but entertainment media that teaches lessons about being a principled loser fighting the good fight rather than organizing to win against forces that actually oppose your interests.
Americans only gain political education by attempting to get more involved and seeing how the sausage is made. Learning from others with more experience, and discovering that there is an entire library of political education out there that has been suppressed, by sheer volume of samey pap “political” books, from being on everyone’s basic curriculum.
There are more ways to describe the forces at work, but the key issue is that Americans learn a false consciousness that is repeatedly pounded into their heads so that they cannot even understand that, for example, criticizing a reactionary Democrat does not mean you are a Trump-loving Republican.
The positive side of this is that we can use organization and education to move past this. If you can get someone to join a reading group, 9 out of 10 times they will learn, they will discard wrong ideas, and they will advance in their consciousness.
Re: third party, I think it’s fine for raising consciousness and being part of an organized group, but we should always remember that the electoral system itself was set up by slaveowners that just wanted to keep their own money and power and that it continues to be an expression of ruling class interests. You can exhaust yourself just trying to get ballot access and the other parties will just change the rules anyways once you start doing well. There are other ways to build and yield power than entering legislatures and we shouldn’t loss focus on them.
The reason to expand the power would be to achieve the promised policy goals of a political program, of course. That they prefer to make excuses reveals exactly how much they prioritize those goals. They are players on a team that is more beholden to corporations’ wishes than any premised policy that would save millions of lives. They just need you to not realize that so you’ll keep voting them in.
Why? The ruling honestly made sense, Roe v Wade was based on a concept of privacy through a convoluted reading of the Constitution. It was a crappy, sketchy ruling.
What should have happened is a federal law ensuring a right to abortion access (or at least a law establishing the right to privacy that Roe v Wade assumed existed). That should have happened way back when Roe v Wade was originally being considered. But Congress is disfunctional and doesn’t actually seem interested in solving important problems.
Sure. But if enough people actually notice it and care, politicians who do that won’t do as well in reelection. The deck is already stacked against third parties (even the “private” debates use the same 15% polling BS the debate commission used), why not push politicians to make it more obvious.
Surely at some point people will demand change, we just need to be vocal and ever present so people get riled up about it.
The point isn’t to get elected as a third party, it’s to steal enough of the votes that the two major parties need to adjust their policies to pull votes from them. Trump promising to free Ross Ulbricht is a small example of that (I doubt he will though).
Yes, and that’s through forcing candidates to adjust policy positions to get enough votes to win. A great way to do that is media attention for fringe parties, and another is being vocal between elections (contacting reps, attending legislative hearings, protests, etc). Be loud, consistently.
Unless you live in a swing state/district (unlikely), your vote is better spent protesting the duopoly. I personally don’t care what third party you pick, just vote for anyone other than the two major parties. Write someone in if you have to, the point is to reduce their votes.
To be blunt, so that people don’t make arguments like this that assume the court is about calling balls and strikes. It is, in reality, an unelected political organ whose decisions are routinely full of absolute bullshit that is just cover for whatever a given justice personality preferred politically. As a consequence, you can come to two conclusions:
The Supreme Court can decide basically whatever it wants and just add some legal potpourri in top and should therefore be treated as a political organ subject to democratic norms. Expand and pack the court so that it becomes closer to matching the results of elections. Demand impeachment. Etc etc.
Start a project to reject the legitimacy of the court itself, as it is an unelected body making political decisions with very little basis in “the rules” for why it has basically any of its current powers.
Congress is functioning exactly as intended. There is a great and useful quote from Stafford Beer where he says there is, “no point in claiming that the purpose of a system is to do what it constantly fails to do.” There is what we are told the system does and there is what it actually does. At some point one has to acknowledge that what it actually does is closer to its real purpose than the stories told about its purpose. In the case of legislating abortion rights, there are many layers to the political system that demonstrate this. You are right that Democrats should have simply written it into law. Obama even promised this in 2008, they enjoyed full control of the House and Senate. Then he quietly announced that it wasn’t a priority.
This demonstrates that the party doesn’t really care. They are made up of people who will always have abortion access themselves and who are social climbers playing a game that serves ruling class interests.
But there is more to it than that. Why was there no fear of backlash, particularly from women’s groups (not excluding trans people, but the orgs at the time were focused on cis women)? Why didn’t Obama lose the next election? It was just a normal soft “thud”, completely ignored. You could say it seemed like Roe v. Wade was enough protection, that there was no sense of urgency or threat. This was false even then, because many states had de facto banned abortion. But surely this means that there is no serious political project that prioritizes this, and we can see this bearing out right now. The federal protection is gone. Deaths during and leading up to pregnancy are ramping up in the states that were ready to go right when the decision was made.
And there is, basically, no political project to show for it. The possibility of organizing for abortion rights had the life sucked out of it by, “vote blue no matter who”. The party has plainly telegraphed what abortion is to them: a wedge issue to whip votes, not a policy to legislate.
This is why it’s important to make this part of a wider, sustainable political program that focuses more on other tactics. You can exhaust the entire party just getting ballot access. That means you can’t do anything else. And for what? So that a different party can pretend to hold your position and continue to not act? This will be entirely unsustainable, you won’t be able to retain people in such a project, and this is born out by the parties that operate this way, e.g. the Greens. They don’t have a sustainable model for political engagement.
Elections should still be used but we should prevent burning out on a project that will, at best, amount to “we can pull him left”.
At some point people will become so frustrated that they lash out. They will not become organized or politically educated by default. There is actually no guarantee that they will make a demand, let alone one they can back up with leverage. It’s our job to organize the people before and while they have this energy and to adopt and teach correct political positions so that when it comes time to act, we have unity.
For example, take the George Floyd protests. They began as riots in response to America’s endemic and violent racialized policing and criminal punishment system. People rose up and demanded change. But they were also disorganized. Different groups jumped in to try and direct the response to their interests. There were Al Sharptons mollifying it into another Vote Blue kind of nonsense. There were liberals that brought megaphones and convinced people to submit to police and get arrested for civil disobedience photo ops. There were organizations with a tokenizing and paper thin understanding of identity who tried to divide up the protest into black decision makers vs. everyone else. There were people who were good at tactics but had no strategy into which to insert it. When demands were made, there were Democratic politicians coming in and making promises to do something 6 months later. This was sometimes enough to get people to go home.Guess what they didn’t do 6 months later, lol. Actually, guess what they did do 6 months later: hire more cops, increase the police budget.
All of the energy was there, the cause was just. The leverage was there. But it was almost all unrealized because the people were unorganized and not politically educated. They did not have unity of action. They did not identity the pitfalls of bourgeois politicians’ promises and delay tactics. They did not have a larger project into which to plug people and create a sustainable system of organization-action-rest. They did not have efficient decision-making structures.
Those are the elements necessary to create a viable political organ in this environment. It requires long-term organizing work so that when lightning strikes, you already have your party and your coalition and nobody is taking it over just because they have a megaphone or a false promise.
Anyways the positive side of this is that we know how to build this. It’s to gain political consciousness through reading socialist and anarchist materials (and more, of course) and to join an organization in that vein. Food Not Bombs is a nice one to join if you aren’t sure what exact kind of group you’d want to be in. They make food for people. But their members are often in other organizations as well and you can start to get connected in the local organizing scene. Make positive connections. Then eventually join a more organized group. Other orgs are also fine, I’m just trying to make it simple.
They just treat that like a PR problem. They literally just spend some more cash from business owners to hire one or two PR firms. It nearly always works because the group making demands is too disorganized to have any real leverage.
There is a lot more that can be done to achieve political goals. Direct action has always been necessary for everything big, in fact. MLK didn’t just say, “be loud”, he helped organize actions that shut down towns, streets, etc. When he was murdered he was working on coordinating strikes with labor groups.
For president, I recommend that people vote uncommitted, or whatever the pro-Palestine protest vote campaign becomes for the general election. And to also take those first steps of becoming politically engaged beyond the intentionally limited system of bourgeois electoralism.
I’m not on board with socialism, at least not in the systemic sense most people refer to. I’m in favor of co-ops and private unions, but not government-level policy. I’m also not in favor of anarchism, though I think we generally need less government than more.
But the great thing about grassroots, single-issue endeavors is that we don’t need to agree on the big picture, we only need to agree on that single issue. For MLK Jr., the message was clear: civil rights regardless of skin color. That united people regardless of political leanings, and being consistently loud about that single issue is what resulted in success. Yeah he wanted to go further (and I probably disagree on those goals), but he focused the civil rights movement on that one goal.
We need that same type of thing today. We need a figurehead that will focus on single issues that cross the partisan divide, and we need to keep pushing on it until we get it. Eliminating FPTP is a good option. The Palestinian issue would be a bit harder since it’s not our war and both parties seem intent on supporting Israel. I’m in favor of either though.
We really need another MLK Jr., and unfortunately I don’t see anyone stepping up. So the next best option is to keep making the conditions favorable for that. Force politicians to address the issue, and more people will get fired up, and maybe the next MLK will step up. I’m not that person, but maybe I can run for office and stir the pot a bit.
Oh, yeah, because playing nice with the right wing has worked well so far.
Nothing is stopping them from doing it anyways. Let’s keep the norms while a rogue court takes our rights.