I mean, I still prefer my pitch to yours, but I wouldn’t be sad with your idea either.
I don’t think your pitch really combats the “people won’t actually want to do the work” issue. I think in either example you’ll have a lot of people who are “just here so I don’t get fined,” as it were.
But I think you’re overstating that issue in either case. Will it have that issue, sure. But so does the military writ large. Does it impact efficiency, sure. But making an efficient, well oiled machine isn’t exactly the point.
But other than that, reading your proposal again, I kinda think that the only thing that makes your proposal different from mine is the mandatory nature of the service.
The benefits you outlined are commensurate with the lower enlisted ranks in the military, so like, yeah, that’s what I’m proposing I guess.
I think the benefits of forcing people to leave their bubbles justifies the forced nature of mandatory service. It a means of helping young people escape cycles of abuse, and exposing them to other cultures. It’s also a great equalizer, in that it effects poor and rich alike, where your system ends up just admitting poor people who are desperate (not unlike the military as it stands.)
I’d also be open to having a program option where you can defer up to 5yrs to pursue a college degree if it’s in a relevant field (civil engineering, etc) and do your mandatory service afterwards utilizing those skills. The program still pays for that college time but gets relevant use out of you at the end. This prevents people who know what they want to do from having to delay and gives them relevant job experience right out of the gate as a resume builder.
I kinda think that the only thing that makes your proposal different from mine is the mandatory nature of the service.
Exactly, and that’s critical for me.
My SO is from a country with forced military service, and it’s the only reason why my children don’t have citizenship in that country. I will not force them to serve in the military, I think that’s unethical and I refused to do it. If the US called a draft that would impact my kids, I’d help them leave the country if they didn’t want to serve. I will not stand for conscription in any form, even if it’s for a “noble” purpose.
That said, I like the general idea of serving in a structured environment like the National Guard, and I considered joining some years back, but didn’t because I thought it would impact my time with my family. As long as it’s voluntary, I’m 100% on board with expanding that program.
Is it the “military” part of it? Cause I think that neither of us are proposing this as a “fight and die” thing.
If it’s just the mandate in general, would you say taxes are unethical? It’s the government taking a portion of the fruits of your labor for civic gain.
Is mandatory schooling unethical? It’s the government mandating what you do with your life in large part between the ages of 6 and 17.
I just fail to see what makes this meaningfully different from any number of things that we already happily accept.
Yes, to an extent. I find capitation/poll taxes especially unethical because they’re unavoidable.
But most are avoidable, or at least structured in a way that targets heavier users of services (esp. vehicle and gas taxes). In a sense, I’m consenting to the tax by participating in the taxed activity, like income tax for earning income, or sales tax for buying/selling stuff, so it’s not as bad as a completely non-voluntary tax. I find some taxes more distasteful than others, and the reasoning comes down to how reasonable avoidance is (e.g. income tax is impractical to avoid because even income from illegal activity is taxable).
That said, taxes are vastly preferable to forced labor because I can choose how to earn money to pay the tax, so my liberty is in-tact. Forced labor limits my basic freedoms, and to me that is unacceptable without consent. Being “military” makes it worse because they could theoretically be forced to fight, but any form of forced labor is unethical in my mind (including prison labor, unless it’s voluntary).
Is mandatory schooling unethical?
Mandatory public schooling is unethical. If parents can choose how their child is educated (home school, private school, etc) and the children only need to pass certain tests to prove proficiency, then I’m fine with it. But forcing someone to be in a classroom all day is unethical. Requirements are fine, but people need to be free in how they meet them.
I feel the same way about forced vaccinations, mask mandates, etc. I’m fine with vaccinations or masks being required for certain voluntary activities (e.g. attending a concert), but I’m absolutely against it for required activities (e.g. if you force children to attend public school, they cannot be forced to wear a mask or be vaccinated).
To be clear, my whole family is fully vaccinated (we all love vaccines), and we all wore masks in public and often in private, even when not required, when COVID-19 recommendations were in place. We think both are absolutely great ideas. But my state never had any form of vaccine or mask mandates for the general public (certain health personnel did have requirements IIRC), and kids were allowed to return to school or do remote learning in fall 2020 (schools were closed in March 2020 until the end of the school year until better data was available). I think that was the right call. The only times I showed my vax card were for boosters and crossing the border to Canada.
That’s my take. In a free society, everything should be voluntary.
I mean, I still prefer my pitch to yours, but I wouldn’t be sad with your idea either.
I don’t think your pitch really combats the “people won’t actually want to do the work” issue. I think in either example you’ll have a lot of people who are “just here so I don’t get fined,” as it were.
But I think you’re overstating that issue in either case. Will it have that issue, sure. But so does the military writ large. Does it impact efficiency, sure. But making an efficient, well oiled machine isn’t exactly the point.
But other than that, reading your proposal again, I kinda think that the only thing that makes your proposal different from mine is the mandatory nature of the service.
The benefits you outlined are commensurate with the lower enlisted ranks in the military, so like, yeah, that’s what I’m proposing I guess.
I think the benefits of forcing people to leave their bubbles justifies the forced nature of mandatory service. It a means of helping young people escape cycles of abuse, and exposing them to other cultures. It’s also a great equalizer, in that it effects poor and rich alike, where your system ends up just admitting poor people who are desperate (not unlike the military as it stands.)
I’d also be open to having a program option where you can defer up to 5yrs to pursue a college degree if it’s in a relevant field (civil engineering, etc) and do your mandatory service afterwards utilizing those skills. The program still pays for that college time but gets relevant use out of you at the end. This prevents people who know what they want to do from having to delay and gives them relevant job experience right out of the gate as a resume builder.
Exactly, and that’s critical for me.
My SO is from a country with forced military service, and it’s the only reason why my children don’t have citizenship in that country. I will not force them to serve in the military, I think that’s unethical and I refused to do it. If the US called a draft that would impact my kids, I’d help them leave the country if they didn’t want to serve. I will not stand for conscription in any form, even if it’s for a “noble” purpose.
That said, I like the general idea of serving in a structured environment like the National Guard, and I considered joining some years back, but didn’t because I thought it would impact my time with my family. As long as it’s voluntary, I’m 100% on board with expanding that program.
What about it being mandated makes it unethical?
Is it the “military” part of it? Cause I think that neither of us are proposing this as a “fight and die” thing.
If it’s just the mandate in general, would you say taxes are unethical? It’s the government taking a portion of the fruits of your labor for civic gain.
Is mandatory schooling unethical? It’s the government mandating what you do with your life in large part between the ages of 6 and 17.
I just fail to see what makes this meaningfully different from any number of things that we already happily accept.
Yes, it’s the mandate in general.
Yes, to an extent. I find capitation/poll taxes especially unethical because they’re unavoidable.
But most are avoidable, or at least structured in a way that targets heavier users of services (esp. vehicle and gas taxes). In a sense, I’m consenting to the tax by participating in the taxed activity, like income tax for earning income, or sales tax for buying/selling stuff, so it’s not as bad as a completely non-voluntary tax. I find some taxes more distasteful than others, and the reasoning comes down to how reasonable avoidance is (e.g. income tax is impractical to avoid because even income from illegal activity is taxable).
That said, taxes are vastly preferable to forced labor because I can choose how to earn money to pay the tax, so my liberty is in-tact. Forced labor limits my basic freedoms, and to me that is unacceptable without consent. Being “military” makes it worse because they could theoretically be forced to fight, but any form of forced labor is unethical in my mind (including prison labor, unless it’s voluntary).
Mandatory public schooling is unethical. If parents can choose how their child is educated (home school, private school, etc) and the children only need to pass certain tests to prove proficiency, then I’m fine with it. But forcing someone to be in a classroom all day is unethical. Requirements are fine, but people need to be free in how they meet them.
I feel the same way about forced vaccinations, mask mandates, etc. I’m fine with vaccinations or masks being required for certain voluntary activities (e.g. attending a concert), but I’m absolutely against it for required activities (e.g. if you force children to attend public school, they cannot be forced to wear a mask or be vaccinated).
To be clear, my whole family is fully vaccinated (we all love vaccines), and we all wore masks in public and often in private, even when not required, when COVID-19 recommendations were in place. We think both are absolutely great ideas. But my state never had any form of vaccine or mask mandates for the general public (certain health personnel did have requirements IIRC), and kids were allowed to return to school or do remote learning in fall 2020 (schools were closed in March 2020 until the end of the school year until better data was available). I think that was the right call. The only times I showed my vax card were for boosters and crossing the border to Canada.
That’s my take. In a free society, everything should be voluntary.