This is interesting to me because, as a dude in his 40s, I grew up with adults (and even cartoons) saying ‘woman xxxx’ being the pejorative (i.e. damn woman drivers!). It’s been weird to seem to see this flip.
That’s true, but the OP’s and my experience is that the adjectival use, like “woman doctor,” was pejorative. I associate it with Greatest and Silent Generation relatives. We changed to say “female doctor,” as it sounded more neutral.
Now, there’s a movement back, and lots of younger folks now say that the latter is demeaning, and that “woman doctor” is the respectful phrasing. I know it’s essentially arbitrary, and defined by usage, it’s just interesting to see the evolution.
I’m bothered when ever I hear someone use females as a collective noun for women. Not necessarily because it offends me or because I’m offended on behalf of someone else, but because it sounds so strange to me and the context where it is used is often wildly inappropriate.
The usage is odd; in my experience people who refer to women collectively as females often do not refer to men collectively as males which is often telling about other beliefs and ideas. Also, male/female and man/woman are dichotomies, and using men/females sounds really off.
Referring to people using technical terminology feels reductive and weird to me. Replace female with any other technical identity term and use it the same way: it will get really awkward really fast.
I am aware that the majority of people who use females collectively are not doing so to offend. Hell, the other day, I heard a teacher refer to the girls in her class as females. I doubt she was using it as a pejorative, but she referred to the boys as… boys. The whole thing was weird to me.
Yea. “Female” and “male” don’t sound weird to me in themselves. I don’t see then as in a different category of words than “women” or “boys”. But using it in an inconsistent way would be weird to me as well. If in a class, the girls, or women, are in the same age as the boys, or men, then it should be either “girls and boys”, or “women and men”. Or “females and males”. But “females and boys” is just inconsistent.
I’ve never read any internet comment using “female” as a noun for human women that wasn’t problematic.
This is interesting to me because, as a dude in his 40s, I grew up with adults (and even cartoons) saying ‘woman xxxx’ being the pejorative (i.e. damn woman drivers!). It’s been weird to seem to see this flip.
In addition to what the other reply to you said, I was talking specifically about “female” as a noun.
“females like xyz” and so on.
That’s true, but the OP’s and my experience is that the adjectival use, like “woman doctor,” was pejorative. I associate it with Greatest and Silent Generation relatives. We changed to say “female doctor,” as it sounded more neutral.
Now, there’s a movement back, and lots of younger folks now say that the latter is demeaning, and that “woman doctor” is the respectful phrasing. I know it’s essentially arbitrary, and defined by usage, it’s just interesting to see the evolution.
IMHO fine:
IMHO weird:
So it’s not a reversal. Using “woman” like an adjective is still weird!
I’m with you, but I’ve been reading online that “woman doctor” is now the preferred form.
I see, that is strange!
I think the difference is that one case is a collective noun and the other is a fallacy.
Contrast with using females as a collective noun which can been seen as reductive or offensive on its own without the fallacious logic.
Ah! Yes! I’m not the only one.
Lol! I forget I’m older. That may also contribute to my comfortability with it!
I use it, and never mean it in an offensive way.
“The pronoun “she” is for females, while “he” is for males”.
But now that I see that it’s so widely seen as a slur, I’ll refrain from using it with people who don’t know me well. I’ll use “women and girls”, now.
I’m bothered when ever I hear someone use females as a collective noun for women. Not necessarily because it offends me or because I’m offended on behalf of someone else, but because it sounds so strange to me and the context where it is used is often wildly inappropriate.
The usage is odd; in my experience people who refer to women collectively as females often do not refer to men collectively as males which is often telling about other beliefs and ideas. Also, male/female and man/woman are dichotomies, and using men/females sounds really off.
Referring to people using technical terminology feels reductive and weird to me. Replace female with any other technical identity term and use it the same way: it will get really awkward really fast.
I am aware that the majority of people who use females collectively are not doing so to offend. Hell, the other day, I heard a teacher refer to the girls in her class as females. I doubt she was using it as a pejorative, but she referred to the boys as… boys. The whole thing was weird to me.
Yea. “Female” and “male” don’t sound weird to me in themselves. I don’t see then as in a different category of words than “women” or “boys”. But using it in an inconsistent way would be weird to me as well. If in a class, the girls, or women, are in the same age as the boys, or men, then it should be either “girls and boys”, or “women and men”. Or “females and males”. But “females and boys” is just inconsistent.
As opposed to what, robot women?
(All women are human.)