They say that like it’s a bad thing.
What kills me is that this is a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. The longer they fight against change, the more people they will convince that capitalism itself is the problem.
Exactly. End both of them
Maybe capitalism needs to suck it up and pull itself up by its bootstraps instead of needing subsidized fossil fuels. /s
↑ This, but without the /s.
In particular, we need to protect the free market by creating a carbon tax to compensate for fossil fuels’ negative externalities and level the playing field for “greener” competitors.
Not taxing carbon is anti-capitalist protectionism.
That or have the state stop giving money to corpos that definitely don’t need it, or by breaking up monopolies just so fair competition can be a thing.
Seriously, thinking that America’s system is capitalist is just as stupid as thinking it’s the land of the free
What murica has is what happens when you take the breaks off and let crap run to its logical extreme (and with rampant corruption where the cars breaks used to be)
Regulatory capture.
Revolving doors.
Political dark money.
Monopolies that manage to be technically not monopolies some frakkin how.
Rackets that never get charged as such.
Planned obsolescence.
Anticompetetive and anti consumer practices all over and the erosion of rights - you effectivly don’t own what you buy and can’t resell it anymore.
Trade agreements to export this insanity to other countries.
Granting corporations the ability to sue NATIONS over “lost profits” in response to resonable regulation!
Instead of “harnessing greed” its run rampant and unchecked to the point its destroying our environment at an insane pace. And its spreading beyond america. It has been for years most people just haven’t realized it yet. (Ed: by “it”, I mean this corrupt thing that America thinks of as capitalism, is overtaming what you may think of as calitalism)
The cancer has metastisized, and we’ll need to reinvent a strongly regulated similar system that rejects the clear broken parts in order to excise it - capitalism as is, is lost. It’s not sustainable.
I realize I’m talking in a very pro socialist/pro communist space but what I’m saying doesn’t mean I think capitalism was always terrible. But any good times it had are soon coming to an end.
Bold of you to assume that’s capitalist. If the state intervenes by favouring monopolies against any possible competition that’s definitely not a free market
Favoring Monopolies againts monopolies?? What are you attempting to say? That sentance didn’t make sense.
Need a meme for can’t end capitalism if it ends itself first.
Competition, I meant competition
Woah humans can and do make mistakes!
Relax. Nothin to be upset about. All good.
You don’t need to end capitalism to help the climate.
Just properly regulate it. It’s a tool just like every other economic system, and shouldn’t be hoisted to a higher pedestal. Every system that fails fails because regulation falls off the wayside and leads into corruption. Capitalism’s only strength is it took longer to get there because all the power was spread out for awhile.
That’s a pretty shallow take on historic economics.
Capitalism had a role to serve as the transition out of feudal economics.
Now it’s time to do better.
Better as in what though?
We’ve used every economic system by itself, and the only really successful version is a combination of them with proper regulation. What else do you do?
Well there was a guy with a funny beard who wrote about what happens when capitalism produces more goods and services than could ever be reasonably consumed by the populace of the world. He wrote about how there were basically 2 coutcomes. Either the the rising supply just keeps pushing prices down until the only issue comes down to a logistics and distribution problem and money functionally becomes pointless and state power doesnt have any heirarchy to enforce. Or the people with money and power enforce artificial scarcity, through tactics like letting crops die in the fields, or only release so many diamonds into the market and promiting it as a good thing, to protect their wealth and power.
That seems more like a jab at capitalism than anything I said in that previous question.
Better as in what? What else hasn’t been tried?
Consider this: modern capitalism was pretty much inconceivable to people living in the feudal era. In the same way, it is possible that the system we need is inconceivable to us at the moment. Critiquing capitalism and advocating for a move away from it is still useful.
There are plenty of things that haven’t been tried aside from small-scale examples:
- An economy based on worker cooperatives
- Universal Basic Income
- Universal Basic Capital
- ‘Library economics’ or ‘Library Socialism’
Okay, fair enough.
It is a jab at capitalism. But the theory as the funny beard man stated it would be an evolution of capitalism. Capitalism was very good at making technological progress, advancing productive capacity immensely. His critique is that all that progress wasn’t used to make people’s lives better.
The major iterations of communism that everyone points to didn’t start with fully industrialized societies. They were predominantly agrarian societies coming out of a monarchy, that were pushed through industrialization very rapidly and were left extremely unstable and subject to extreme authoritarianism.
Socialism is probably the most realistic solution that’s been “half tried” (and yes there’s a difference between socialism and communism, the right just doesn’t want people to know it because they might start thinking there’s a viable alternative)… State run non profit corporations for all essential needs, capitalism for things that aren’t essential. We went as far as creating some state run corporations, some of them non profit, but we never moved far enough in that direction to truly see how beneficial it can be for the masses to not have to enrich investors when buying food or clothing or renting an apartment…
I like how someone writing something 100 years ago makes it true
Cool, we still use Socratic Dialogue as an instructional tool and that has existed for 2500 years. Something being old doesn’t make it useless.
I didn’t say the problem is the age
You literally did say that.
So the artificial scarcity doesn’t ring true to you?
They did give you two options. They didn’t say those are the only two options.
Oh the guy who only complained and made effective criticisms with no realistic alternative, yeah sounds like a modern communist to me.
We’ve used every economic system by itself
Because a few hundred years with constantly changing technology is an exhaustive test of every possible version of organizing society. Pack up folks, it’s all been tried and only one thing works or will ever work.
So it’s better just because the guy who created it said so?
Like half of Marx’s theories are gross oversimplifications that are definitely biased towards his point
Well communism has been tried and it didn’t work. It was trounced by the capitalist world which, nevertheless, adopted some socialist ideas, especially in Europe.
So no, it’s not time to do better. Communism isn’t the next step after capitalism. It clearly isn’t remotely capable of competing with capitalism in the long term. No matter how many thousands of pages of theoretical wishful thinking people have written about it, if it doesn’t work in the real world it doesn’t work. It always ends up in authoritarian, repressive regimes that are economic backwaters. To the extent that they desire secular growth they have to open up markets like China did, and simply become authoritarian and somewhat economically free.
The biggest issue is that this is a doomer self defeating argument. If you don’t believe something is possible, then it isn’t. Even if total communism is an unreachable goal, why not try to move closer to it? Liberalism is a walking contradiction, with economic liberalism being almost incompatible with social liberalism. That hasn’t stopped it from having drastic positive and negative effects on human history from people trying to live by it.
Furthermore, the idea that communism is a dead end reinforces the toxic view that anyone attempting to strive closer towards it is a threat that must be eliminated. Anti-communist sentiment has led to and enabled some of the worst atrocities of all time. The best part is that many of the people accused of being communists merely wanted liberation.
The fact is, if communism was wiped from existence and Karl Marx erased from history, the same ideas would evolve out of Christianity, or liberalism, or any ideology that isn’t a fucking death cult. This is because Marx did not make a unique and unprecedented observation, he just put the pieces together first. Egalitarianism and sharing is as important to human success as territorialism and self interest.
Finally, Marx did believe communism would come out of industrialized societies with enough resources to go around. That is not the state that the Soviet Union or China were in when they declared themselves communist. Making absolute statements about the end state of all attempts at something is setting yourself up for failure far more than trying a new way to make something theoretically possible happen.
regulation falls off the wayside and leads into corruption
And vice versa! Corruption leads to lack of regulation. It’s a shit circular dance that I feel like we’re doomed to repeat regardless of the economic system we pick.
Corruption nearly always leads to more regulation but targeted against competitors.
I think it’s pretty clear we aren’t necessarily talking only about the quantity of bills passed, but also the quality
This (please don’t stone me for just saying a word, but I tried to express this point in another comment)
Lack of regulation? I’d say it creates even more regulation to keep corruption going
Agreed. Capitalism is a horrible master but a good slave. Just like we regulated the other forces of nature (like fire) to harness them in our favour, so should we harness market forces to work for us.
Capitalism works well when there is plenty of potential for growth, but when there are non-monetary reasons (such as the literal end of ecosystems favorable to human life) that require adjustments or even degrowth, it quickly devolves into feudalism - and the problem is that we do not have the means to quickly stop CO2 emissions without tightening our belts in energy consumption, which in turn requires some degree of degrowth.
You don’t need to end capitalism to help the climate. Just properly regulate it.
Except that politicians (i.e. those that would be doing the regulating) all have a price, and for oil barons no price is too high; and bribing is still magnitudes cheaper than stopping the destruction of the environment.
It’s a tool just like every other economic system, and shouldn’t be hoisted to a higher pedestal.
If it’s not objectively better nor special, why not try something more equitable that doesn’t siphon 99% of all resources to the
aristocracyelite and leaves everyone else fighting for the crumbs?Why keep using a system that prescribes that the hungry should starve if they can’t afford food even though we already produce more than enough to feed the whole planet?
Regulation? Sounds like communism to me
Regulating is definitely not like a command economy
Not being serious there feller
Yeah, we need regulation but no direct intervention like the state is currently doing to protect monopolies.
Like, make some rules to keep competition fair but don’t go to specific companies to protect them
Is there a lemmy equivalent to /r/SelfAwareWolves? Because this fits.
Make it and crosspost!
Ah, it exists: [email protected]
Hi there! Looks like you linked to a Lemmy community using a URL instead of its name, which doesn’t work well for people on different instances. Try fixing it like this: [email protected]
selfawarewolves material
The two aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive. It’s just that capital would grow slower. You can have a green capitalism. It just that no one invested in that
The problem is externalities. Companies have to be held responsible for their damage.
If governments held companies liable for the full cost of fixing their damage to humanity and earth I honestly don’t know how many would be left.
I’m sorry but you missed the memo that polluting is free
It’s cheaper than taking measures against it, but it for sure ain’t free
“Green capitalism” only exists if green energy is more profitable than climate-harming alternatives
Given the multiple decades of oil and gas infrastructure, that’s not realistic.
In theory, consumer demand for green energy could make this a reality, but it would have to be a massive swing. And in practice, most consumers will go for the cheapest option - in many cases, given their resources, they have to.
The other way that green energy could become more profitable is through heavy government regulation. So… yeah you could have a green ‘capitalism’ if the State manages the market, and withstands the corporate pressure to withdraw. But that has literally happened nowhere
I suppose hypothetically you could argue that IF a company invested heavily in green technology and IF that investment resulted in a cheaper form of energy, AND that technology also applied to the supply chain, then we could have green capitalism. But i mean that’s highly speculative and it also would be entirely a coincidence
“Think tank” as in circlejerk.
I miss r/PragerUrine. Par for the course for a right wing cesspool
Is there a c/toiletpaperusa?
hey friend I’m new to lemmy. is c/ the new r/ ? like is it denoting the subreddit name? sublemmy?
I think it’s been the shorthand that people use because it’s so similar to reddit and it’s easy to understand.
They’re called communities and I don’t actually know how to link to a community using the Lemmy format.
I think it’s [email protected]
Yeah I think it stands for community. To visit c/[email protected] for example, you can go to lemmy.world/c/[email protected]. Although I’m not sure writing c/ links to the community in comments
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I’ve only recently come across PragerU on Youtube, and ever since I have only been rolling my eyes at what they say.
They’re yet another cancer on society…
This was the final straw for me to finally get off FB, toooooooo many (unhinged) “friends” quoting PU as facts & citing them as a source. Pure propaganda garbage.
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But as you said, activists often use climate change as an excuse for “overthrowing capitalism” and replacing it with a “dictatorship of the proletariat”, and I think this tweet is actually referencing this rather than thinking it to be the logical conclusion
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Or investing in improving things like fusion energy and superconductors
aaannnd?
Honest question, what economic or political system exists out there that would be better for climate change?
Or is the assumption that system doesn’t exist yet?
Any system that has some growth built into it will eventually cause problems, it’s just that some of them, like capitalism, are very efficient at getting us to these points faster. The best system for the climate was discarded long ago, as we moved out of the hunter-gather phase and discovered techniques in maximizing our energy into other things besides just surviving. Agriculture and all that it allowed were the first steps into taxing the earth’s balance.
If you want to avoid saying socialism, communism, or true communism (anarchism) then try library economy or gift economy. Some nice examples I’ve heard.
Except that some of the absolute worst ecological tragedies in the modern world were done in socialist systems, largely because they were inefficient, central planning made it more effective, and people couldn’t say no or mitigate it. I honestly think that people use socialism as a catch-all to be a system where they can force through the changes they would prefer to see in the world.
Meanwhile, some of the most effective ecological mitigations of the modern world were done through legislation and regulation of a capitalist system. Example: the banning of CFCs and water management.
It’s largely our growth as a population that’s caused the issues and it requires drastic action at all levels to live within our means. We can live more sustainably and we are getting there but it does require an efficient system and an educated populous. That results in better regulations on markets that can account for externalities.
Poisoning the waterhole hurts everyone regardless of the system. There needs to be consequences put in place for doing so, and by the international nature of the problem, it requires treaties to get all systems aligned. That takes time and effort and we are getting there.
Except that some of the absolute worst ecological tragedies in the modern world were done in socialist systems
The Dust Bowl. Exxon Valdez. Deepwater Horizon.
I think this goes back to my original question, obviously capitalism has had it’s disasters, that much is known, but at the same time you have disasters like Chernobyl, Kyshtym, Dzerzhinsk. I understand the USSR was not the ideal communist/socialist system, but it’s the most apparent we have (going back to my original question, I think?). I just feel like statements in OP are not the right rallying call if actual change is desired, as it implies we just need to shift to our current implementations of other systems. I think the only real answer, like I mentioned in other comments is to bypass current systems and investigate new options.
You’re suggesting heavy regulation of social and economic systems which is the entire point of socialism. You say socialism doesn’t work, but that is exactly what you’re describing.
And capitalism does not want to exist in a society of international regulation. Those concepts are at odds with one another.
The pure socialism people keep asking for hasn’t worked. It’s been taken over and corrupted throughout history.
Capitalism does not want socialist policies, but you can still force it to apply them. Because it’s not a god, a person, an all encompassing system, any of that. It’s a tool just like socialism should be treated.
If you like markets you might be more interested in learning about democratic market socialist countries and how they operate. The Nordics lean in that direction - after all, social democracy spawned out of orthodox marxism. The core idea in OG Nordic economics is simple: more democracy. You don’t need a min. wage, let unions bargain for their salaries, which is why McDonalds famously pays such a massive min. wage in Denmark. Fund and support democratically owned housing (housing coops, of which 20% of Norway resides in and still growing vs pop. growth despite no more gov. funding) or democratically run grocery stores (Finland has the highest density of consumer coops in the world) - housing coops usually have democratically agreed policies like not being able to treat your property like a commodity/investment by primarily renting it out (thus not contributing as much to rising housing prices), and consumer coops have been at the forefront of more environmentally and labour friendly behaviour. All the Nordics have worker board representation - workers make up a percentage of the board and help steer the company. There’s also the social wealth funds in Norway that give the government the power to guide corporations towards more ethical behaviour by owning significant amounts of shares in businesses, both domestically and internationally - although some argue Norway could learn from the Alaska SWF which pays its citizens dividends from the SWF. All of this builds towards economic democracy, or more commonly known as “socialism”, but in a way that has had great success. They’ve reeled some of those things back in recent decades, and the negative effects are clear to see - Norway stopping its funding of housing coops has meant a growing housing crisis much like the rest of Europe (with few exceptions, like Vienna (Austria) and Finland where socialised housing plays a bigger role).
It is absolutely not our growth as a population that has affected climate change. That’s capitalist doomer propaganda. Those actually responsible for it are the few at the top of capitalist hierarchies. Politicians, billionaires, oil and coal barons. Right now we van feed up to 11 billion people, yet there is still mass starvation and poverty. Capitalists require poverty so that people are desperate enough to work the shitty jobs the capitalists “create”.
As for the rest of what you said, I briefly touched upon this, but even CCP and USSR admitt(ed) they weren’t really communist, and whether they’re socialist is extremely debatable. They’re not communist because by their own admission they’re preparing for a communist world, but they keep saying that and it never comes about. These regimes lie constantly, but even if they lied rarely I’d still not believe they want actual communism because it’d involve giving up their power. What these states actually are is state capitalist.
They’re communist in the same way the Nazis were socialist, or the DPRK is a democratic republic: they’re not.
That’s the thing, you can never reach a full socialist system in the anarchist sense. Anything short is authoritarianism and that is what you propose we move towards. I am not disagreeing with you but you are missing the fact that those examples were absolutely trying and did try to get there.
Anarchism is fundamentally anti authoritarian so I don’t see how you think I’m proposing that.
The existence of a state and communism are an oxymoron. How can there be equality when there’s still a hierarchy? These nations were also nationalist, which is also at odds with communism. I get how it appears they tried and failed, as did other countries, but there attempts were just for show and don’t indicate that communism is impossible. In fact, humans have lived under what Marx called (though I don’t like the term) “primitive communism” since we first started walking on two feet.
But that being said, I have no idea how anarchism would work on a large scale like with the population of a city.This is where I get really doomer and say my expectation is that as global warming and wars and famine and disease and authoritarian governments get worse the only places left that you can be free will be anarcho communes. Such a thing is possible in our modern day. Zapatista in Mexico and Rojava in Syria have achieved it as far as I can tell, but I have yet to look into how those communities are run. Rojava I know its situation is far from ideal with them having to make deals with devils, like to give America oil rights. Living in Canada myself I can find a comnune on ic.org to join. Though admittedly I haven’t looked into that past skimming their website.
Well, I’ve been to one of the ones you mention and it’s largely corporate. I’m not sure what you’re expecting out of geopolitics. Social science says that trust breaks down inherently with organizations larger than about 300 people. You can argue against pretty structures all you want but all you end up is at the whim of those that prepare for them. Go be in a commune. See what it’s like. I mean that wholeheartedly. There’s nothing sustainable about it but it is an interesting experience.
I guess where I get thrown off by statements like this is thinking of socialist and communist examples of recent history. They all seem to consume as fast as their capacity allows, never seems that different from capitalism. I know a lot of examples aren’t perfect representations of that economic style, but closest examples we have. Just always seemed to me the idea of eliminating capitalism to heal climate change should be, eliminate all systems we currently have in favor of something new.
Library economy sounds interesting
That’d just it, there’s nothing as efficient as it current system. There are plenty of options that are less efficient and better for the environment/people but nothing that’s as efficient in terms of resource allocations.
I think one way to make capitalism suck less would be abolishing publicly owned corporations. Having shareholders to please creates pressure to grow the company’s value even when there is no good reason to. I think it would be far better if companies stayed as family owned mom and pop shops and weren’t allowed to snowball.
Remember that the only reason for the enshittification of Reddit is that it’s doing an IPO. Likewise, I recently noticed that the company that owns my local mini golf course is publicly traded. Since the course has already been built there is no room for meaningful growth and any attempt to grow the company’s value by turning visits into an ‘experience’ or a ‘package day out’ will irritate people like me who are just looking to pay to use a barbones course.
Best comedy website ever
patriarchy too, pal… might as well learn it now…
