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If a dog is excited to see you, and trying their best to chase your hands with their head, is that not a form of the dog giving you consent for pets? Animals to some limited degree can give consent for things like that at least. But most other things, if they can’t give consent then you should assume that you shouldn’t do the thing.
A chicken has eggs for their own reasons. They can’t give consent to give them away, but be realistic - do you really think there’s a chance that a hen would consent to you taking what she believes are going to be her children? They are not yours to take. Why is my position of respecting consent and not exploiting animals absurd, as compared to concluding wholesale that they just can’t give consent and therefor… what? Do we just do whatever we want to them?
I wouldn’t say that I premise exploitation on consent. Afterall I’m being exploited at a minimum wage job, and that is something that I more or less consented to.
But in the case of animals, consent has to play a significant role, because a core part of their oppression is the complete absence of their bodily autonomy. There is a great deal of intersectionality between women’s rights and non-human animal’s rights.
I wouldn’t say that consent is the premise of my opposition, just one important component of it. I don’t remember this discussion so well anymore, but earlier you had pointed out that exploited workers often do consent to their exploitation - and I would agree that exploitation can occur even with consent.
They can’t give consent to give them away, but be realistic - do you really think there’s a chance that a hen would consent to you taking what she believes are going to be her children?
she would need to believe that. i have no evidence that chickens believe their eggs to be their children.
Let’s say they don’t recognize property claims. Why does that then make it right for you to take their eggs?
Many say the native Americans didn’t understand the European concept of owning land (property claim). I’m not sure whether that’s true, but if it were would that then mean it was okay for Europeans to take their land?
Your logic doesn’t make sense to me. “They can’t say ‘no’ and they probably don’t understand property so I’ll just go ahead and do what I want.” Lame
Why does that then make it right for you to take their eggs?
i’m saying there is no reason it’s not ok to take the eggs, and recognition of property rights can’t possibly be a good reason not to do so. it’s possible there is some reason, but it can’t be that the chickens think the eggs belong to them, since there is no evidence for that claim.
it’s fine to value consent. but it’s absurd to talk about consent from something incapable of it.
If a dog is excited to see you, and trying their best to chase your hands with their head, is that not a form of the dog giving you consent for pets? Animals to some limited degree can give consent for things like that at least. But most other things, if they can’t give consent then you should assume that you shouldn’t do the thing.
A chicken has eggs for their own reasons. They can’t give consent to give them away, but be realistic - do you really think there’s a chance that a hen would consent to you taking what she believes are going to be her children? They are not yours to take. Why is my position of respecting consent and not exploiting animals absurd, as compared to concluding wholesale that they just can’t give consent and therefor… what? Do we just do whatever we want to them?
i think it’s fine to oppose exploitation. it’s absurd to premise that opposition on consent.
I wouldn’t say that I premise exploitation on consent. Afterall I’m being exploited at a minimum wage job, and that is something that I more or less consented to.
But in the case of animals, consent has to play a significant role, because a core part of their oppression is the complete absence of their bodily autonomy. There is a great deal of intersectionality between women’s rights and non-human animal’s rights.
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Sexual_Politics_of_Meat.html?id=aU28CgAAQBAJ
i’m saying you premise your opposition to exploitation on consent. and i’m saying that’s absurd.
I wouldn’t say that consent is the premise of my opposition, just one important component of it. I don’t remember this discussion so well anymore, but earlier you had pointed out that exploited workers often do consent to their exploitation - and I would agree that exploitation can occur even with consent.
she would need to believe that. i have no evidence that chickens believe their eggs to be their children.
You don’t need to know what a chicken believes to recognize that their behaviours indicate they do not want others to steal their eggs.
as far as i know, chickens don’t recognize property claims. they cannot possibly have a moral opposition or even a personal revulsion toward theft.
Let’s say they don’t recognize property claims. Why does that then make it right for you to take their eggs?
Many say the native Americans didn’t understand the European concept of owning land (property claim). I’m not sure whether that’s true, but if it were would that then mean it was okay for Europeans to take their land?
Your logic doesn’t make sense to me. “They can’t say ‘no’ and they probably don’t understand property so I’ll just go ahead and do what I want.” Lame
i’m saying there is no reason it’s not ok to take the eggs, and recognition of property rights can’t possibly be a good reason not to do so. it’s possible there is some reason, but it can’t be that the chickens think the eggs belong to them, since there is no evidence for that claim.