Let me rephrase then - your political establishment has proven that it will happily subject you to the exact same fascist policies that it has been practising in the outside world for a very long time now… and you expect people who point this out to you to also provide you with a solution to this state of affairs?
All I’m seeing are people telling me both parties are the same,
That’s not exactly true… they serve the same status quo - and they wouldn’t be able to do that very effectively if they were exactly the same.
You don’t just cede to outright fascism just because.
Both parties might not exactly be the same… but both of them are perfectly fine with fascism. After all… both parties have happily funded, supported and enabled Israel’s (a fascist state) genocide since the '70s - and that’s just the one US-sponsored colonialist bloodbath the media is actually telling you about.
There’s a saying amongst leftists - fascism is just colonialism coming home to roost. And guess what… you have decades’ worth of colonialism inbound. Somehow, I don’t think a cross on a ballot is going to cut it.
Of course American power furthers American power. The goal should be to shift the Overton window left. Leftists would rather sit on their hands and watch it all burn. Why not run for office? Why not try outreach to working people or at-risk communities? Nah, much easier to just complain on social media.
Gee… I wonder why the left never does anything like that - it’s a complete mystery, I tell you.
Donating money? No I mean going out and helping people. Why aren’t leftists more popular amongst working people? Why is it always some angsty college drop out? (Idk that this is you, just my experience). The obvious answer is propaganda. But I don’t see much effort from the left. Sure, there are some but the messaging hasn’t been very successful.
And become a part of the problem? How will that solve anything?
Do you not see that if everyone maintains the attitude “if I am in power, I am part of the problem” then the only people who will run are those in favor of the problem? Power must be obtained and exercised. You can’t just concede all decision making to your enemy and then get pissed when your values aren’t represented in the state’s actions.
then the only people who will run are those in favor of the problem?
This isn’t very hard to understand, liberal - institutionalied power is the problem, and it only tolerates those that are in favor of it. How is it that you don’t already know this?
Power must be obtained and exercised.
Then why do have a problem with fascism, then? It would seem like it would be right up your alley.
I’m really baffled on what I said to raise your hackles. I’m not really sure how you think the world works, but power exists. The goal of government should be to ensure that power serves the people. The idea behind democratoc forms of government is that if the power is derived from the people, it will seek to serve the people. (Power will always serve it’s own self-interest).
You critique institutionalized power, what is the alternative? What is deinstitutionalize power? I’m legitimately asking. I am having difficulty imagining such a system. It seems to me that power has gravity and always seems to clump together.
I guess where I’m coming from, is that these discussion are somewhat detached from reality. If you live in the US in 2024, you have the option to vote for Donald Trump, Joe Biden, or abstain. How is abstaining or voting for Trump helping anyone? It seems you seek radical change, so maybe by ensuring a Trump presidency you can accelerate the destruction of the current US government. Then you roll the die on whether you can form your deinstitutionalized utopia. I hope the blood price is worth the risk.
The goal of government should be to ensure that power serves the people.
Who told you this? The people in power, perhaps? Surely they would never lie to you… would they?
The idea behind democratoc forms of government
There is no such thing as a “democratic” state - the society you exist in is either democratic or it isn’t. Spoiler alert - yours isn’t… which means it doesn’t matter how loudly politicians or the media tell you how “democratic” everything (supposedly) is, does it now?
If US society was in any way democratic, you’d have something resembling universal healthcare already - which you don’t.
If US society was in any way democratic, the US wouldn’t be the world’s number one warmonger and funder of fascist terrorism - which you are (and have been for a very, very long time).
it will seek to serve the people.
So do tell… how has helping a genocidal white supremacist state perpetrate mass-murder on brown people half-way around the world “served” you today?
The thought-terminating cliches - oops, sorry, I meant to say “theories” - you have been sold isn’t matching up with blatantly observable reality, are they?
Perhaps you need better theories? Or, at the very least, theories that actually qualify as theory?
Power will always serve it’s own self-interest
Yes… it will. And institutionalizing power is simply the most logical way for power to serve it’s own interests.
I am having difficulty imagining such a system.
That’s because you’re not supposed to - in the same way that peasants were not supposed to imagine existing without “divinely ordained” families of inbred charlatans lording over them.
If you live in the US in 2024, you have the option to vote for Donald Trump, Joe Biden, or abstain.
This is a very liberal thing - even these (so-called) “conservatives” (who are really just liberals far along the “liberal-to-fascist pipeline”) are willing to contemplate shaping politics outside the formal political establishment. But liberals naively believe any such thing is impossible - someone should really study this.
How is abstaining or voting for Trump helping anyone?
There’s a lot more to politics than just elections, for crying out loud. Did antifa wait for an election before beating the fascists off the streets in 2016?
so maybe by ensuring a Trump presidency you can accelerate the destruction of the current US government.
Lol! The only thing a Trump presidency is going to accelerate is the Dems being able to run a blow-up doll in 2028 and knowing perfectly well that people will turn out in force to carry it into the Waffle House after four years of Trump’s abuse. The US political establishment is far too large and labyrinthine to be brought low by one person - it’s going to take a lot more than Trump. You know… the guy whose brilliant idea of a “coup” was simply to sicc a white supremacist lynch mob on the capitol?
Let me rephrase then - your political establishment has proven that it will happily subject you to the exact same fascist policies that it has been practising in the outside world for a very long time now… and you expect people who point this out to you to also provide you with a solution to this state of affairs?
No? All I’m seeing are people telling me both parties are the same, when they clearly are not. You don’t just cede to outright fascism just because.
That’s not exactly true… they serve the same status quo - and they wouldn’t be able to do that very effectively if they were exactly the same.
Both parties might not exactly be the same… but both of them are perfectly fine with fascism. After all… both parties have happily funded, supported and enabled Israel’s (a fascist state) genocide since the '70s - and that’s just the one US-sponsored colonialist bloodbath the media is actually telling you about.
There’s a saying amongst leftists - fascism is just colonialism coming home to roost. And guess what… you have decades’ worth of colonialism inbound. Somehow, I don’t think a cross on a ballot is going to cut it.
Of course American power furthers American power. The goal should be to shift the Overton window left. Leftists would rather sit on their hands and watch it all burn. Why not run for office? Why not try outreach to working people or at-risk communities? Nah, much easier to just complain on social media.
If you’re just fine and dandy with US imperialism I don’t see why you should have a problem with fascism, then.
And become a part of the problem? How will that solve anything?
Oh… you mean this?
Gee… I wonder why the left never does anything like that - it’s a complete mystery, I tell you.
Donating money? No I mean going out and helping people. Why aren’t leftists more popular amongst working people? Why is it always some angsty college drop out? (Idk that this is you, just my experience). The obvious answer is propaganda. But I don’t see much effort from the left. Sure, there are some but the messaging hasn’t been very successful.
Do you not see that if everyone maintains the attitude “if I am in power, I am part of the problem” then the only people who will run are those in favor of the problem? Power must be obtained and exercised. You can’t just concede all decision making to your enemy and then get pissed when your values aren’t represented in the state’s actions.
Good job, liberal - nothing I’ve ever posted flew that high over anybody’s head. You just made most tankies and fascists seem coherent.
Gee, I wonder why there is absolutely no leftist ideas being spread by capitalist media. It’s a complete mystery, I tell ya.
This isn’t very hard to understand, liberal - institutionalied power is the problem, and it only tolerates those that are in favor of it. How is it that you don’t already know this?
Then why do have a problem with fascism, then? It would seem like it would be right up your alley.
I’m really baffled on what I said to raise your hackles. I’m not really sure how you think the world works, but power exists. The goal of government should be to ensure that power serves the people. The idea behind democratoc forms of government is that if the power is derived from the people, it will seek to serve the people. (Power will always serve it’s own self-interest).
You critique institutionalized power, what is the alternative? What is deinstitutionalize power? I’m legitimately asking. I am having difficulty imagining such a system. It seems to me that power has gravity and always seems to clump together.
I guess where I’m coming from, is that these discussion are somewhat detached from reality. If you live in the US in 2024, you have the option to vote for Donald Trump, Joe Biden, or abstain. How is abstaining or voting for Trump helping anyone? It seems you seek radical change, so maybe by ensuring a Trump presidency you can accelerate the destruction of the current US government. Then you roll the die on whether you can form your deinstitutionalized utopia. I hope the blood price is worth the risk.
Who told you this? The people in power, perhaps? Surely they would never lie to you… would they?
There is no such thing as a “democratic” state - the society you exist in is either democratic or it isn’t. Spoiler alert - yours isn’t… which means it doesn’t matter how loudly politicians or the media tell you how “democratic” everything (supposedly) is, does it now?
If US society was in any way democratic, you’d have something resembling universal healthcare already - which you don’t.
If US society was in any way democratic, the US wouldn’t be the world’s number one warmonger and funder of fascist terrorism - which you are (and have been for a very, very long time).
So do tell… how has helping a genocidal white supremacist state perpetrate mass-murder on brown people half-way around the world “served” you today?
The thought-terminating cliches - oops, sorry, I meant to say “theories” - you have been sold isn’t matching up with blatantly observable reality, are they?
Perhaps you need better theories? Or, at the very least, theories that actually qualify as theory?
Yes… it will. And institutionalizing power is simply the most logical way for power to serve it’s own interests.
That’s because you’re not supposed to - in the same way that peasants were not supposed to imagine existing without “divinely ordained” families of inbred charlatans lording over them.
This is a very liberal thing - even these (so-called) “conservatives” (who are really just liberals far along the “liberal-to-fascist pipeline”) are willing to contemplate shaping politics outside the formal political establishment. But liberals naively believe any such thing is impossible - someone should really study this.
There’s a lot more to politics than just elections, for crying out loud. Did antifa wait for an election before beating the fascists off the streets in 2016?
Lol! The only thing a Trump presidency is going to accelerate is the Dems being able to run a blow-up doll in 2028 and knowing perfectly well that people will turn out in force to carry it into the Waffle House after four years of Trump’s abuse. The US political establishment is far too large and labyrinthine to be brought low by one person - it’s going to take a lot more than Trump. You know… the guy whose brilliant idea of a “coup” was simply to sicc a white supremacist lynch mob on the capitol?