You’re comparing two different scenarios. Let’s say you have two cups, one is made out of paper and the other is made of glass. They’re 6 feet off a concrete patio. Wind isn’t an issue.
Let them sit forever, and the paper one will disintegrate long before the glass does. Tip them over, and the glass one will shatter.
Part of the car ownership and life is driving and using it.
If neither of them was driven or used then ICE still wins. What do you think happens to batteries if you let them sit and completely discharge?
So sitting in a garage unused = expressive electric brick. For ICE that’s a car that can be restored in some way
Using them on the roads and getting damage to the battery pack = a write off for an electric car. The level of damage needed to write off an ICE car is much higher. They’re much more repairable.
Yes theoretically an EV should outlast an ICE but in the real world they won’t at the moment.
This is backed by the much higher insurance costs for EVs.
Ah so you’re still talking about some hypothetical situation where EVs get used but don’t have to deal with real world driving issues.
Yes in that very specific hypothetical situation an EV may outlast an ICE. However the ICE is getting no damage either in this world. So who can say.
However Renault saying they will last longer than ICE because the batteries aren’t aging as badly as they thought is still completely untrue. Far more issues with long term EV ownership than just battery age.
When we have some 20 year plus EVs with hundreds of thousands of miles on them still driving around then maybe that will be true.
I’m already one up on this with an article from the FT about insurance costs being higher due to the increased likelihood of an electric car write off.
How about some actual evidence they’re more reliable? Other than your bizarre hypothetical arguments.
Here’s a couple just off the top of my head that I can’t be bothered to get links for.
Tied to the dealer. There’s very few independent EV garages. 95% of the time you’ll have to take the price for any repair they offer you. You can’t shop around.
Complexity. Although they often use the “one moving part” argument with all the extra infrastructure for charging etc they can have very bespoke electric parts. Which means no simple of the shelf pattern parts that are as good for much less. Dealer parts only.
Delay in these parts. There just isn’t enough of a parts infrastructure at the moment. This can even cover simple things like lights or trim.
Recall the decades it took to create vehicles that could be sold (fueled, serviced, places that didn’t even have fucking roads) when we transitioned from horses to ICE.
It’s a transition period, we’re in the early days, of course there aren’t enough technicians or knowledge about long term use and abuse on these new systems; it doesn’t mean we should continue to embrace millions of tiny explosions to propel us down the road, emitting tons of CO2 and other pollutants.
You don’t look at the problem and think: oh this is gonna take time and effort, best to just die in our own effluence instead.
All of your experience, all of the expertise passed down to you and taught was the end of a very, very long tail. You only see one future because of that.
Uh, yeah? If you’re going to make a vague claim without evidence it’s fair to ask for details and some assurance that you’re not making things up
I’m already one up on this with an article from the FT about insurance costs being higher due to the increased likelihood of an electric car write off.
How about some actual evidence they’re more reliable? Other than your bizarre hypothetical arguments.
Again, you’re talking about fragility - something being easy to break when acted on by an external thing. Reliability is about a car breaking down on its own. Something can be fragile, unreliable, both, or neither.
Tied to the dealer. There’s very few independent EV garages. 95% of the time you’ll have to take the price for any repair they offer you. You can’t shop around.
Still has nothing to do with the likelihood of a car breaking down with normal use - in fact, you’re kind of proving my point because if they did break down all the time, maybe you’d see EV shops opening up? Or existing shops branching out? Not sure why you think they’d refuse the business opportunity
Complexity. Although they often use the “one moving part” argument with all the extra infrastructure for charging etc they can have very bespoke electric parts. Which means no simple of the shelf pattern parts that are as good for much less. Dealer parts only.
Delay in these parts. There just isn’t enough of a parts infrastructure at the moment. This can even cover simple things like lights or trim.
Not enough technicians.
Again, NONE of this has anything to do with the likelihood of a car breaking down. You’re predicting (maybe accurately, maybe not) what would happen if a breakdown were to happen. And your points aren’t really inherent to electric vehicles as much as they are to less-common ones. Much of what you said could apply to a kei truck brought in from Japan, a decades-old car, a supercar, or a car you just don’t see on the road as often like a Smart car or Mini Cooper.
Still no evidence from you. Also it appears you can’t read or comprehend simple statements. I said there were more issues with electric vehicles than just batteries. I didn’t say that was anything to do with reliability. Issues with vehicle ownership impact how long that vehicle lasts. Hopefully this time it will sink in. This isn’t about durability or fragility (which are also two concepts you also don’t seem to understand) of an electric motor in a hypothetical situation.
The article isn’t about reliability it is about Electric Vehicles outlasting ICE vehicles. Which is the life of the vehicle. So includes all the things I mentioned. Unless now we’re in another hypothetical world where there are no problems whatsoever over the life of the vehicle. In which case they both last forever.
Your statements about why there aren’t EV garages is complete nonsense and shows you know nothing about the actual subject.
An ICE vehicle left in a garage when petrol in it will have significant issues after a time. The fuel will oxidize and turn to varnish, ruining the fuel pump and valves. Repair can be quite expensive, depending on how thoroughly gummed up things get.
Yes it will but it will always be significantly cheaper to repair. Since 40% of the cost of an electric car is the battery even minor damage to those means that repair is just not viable.
Nice fantasy you’ve got there. Funny how you specifically call out ‘no wind’. While the poster you’re deriding isn’t making up fantasy scenarios and is going by real world actual implications. Are people buying their cars to hide them in garages and never use them.
My point is, something can be more durable but also more fragile. The original article was talking about the durability, and the original commenter couldn’t comprehend that because of an entirely different variable that was never part of the original point.
You’re comparing two different scenarios. Let’s say you have two cups, one is made out of paper and the other is made of glass. They’re 6 feet off a concrete patio. Wind isn’t an issue.
Let them sit forever, and the paper one will disintegrate long before the glass does. Tip them over, and the glass one will shatter.
What on earth are you talking about?
Part of the car ownership and life is driving and using it.
If neither of them was driven or used then ICE still wins. What do you think happens to batteries if you let them sit and completely discharge?
So sitting in a garage unused = expressive electric brick. For ICE that’s a car that can be restored in some way
Using them on the roads and getting damage to the battery pack = a write off for an electric car. The level of damage needed to write off an ICE car is much higher. They’re much more repairable.
Yes theoretically an EV should outlast an ICE but in the real world they won’t at the moment.
This is backed by the much higher insurance costs for EVs.
I didn’t mean “sitting in a garage not getting used”, I meant “getting used, but not getting in an unpredictable accident”
Accidents are an additional variable outside of what the original article is talking about
Ah so you’re still talking about some hypothetical situation where EVs get used but don’t have to deal with real world driving issues.
Yes in that very specific hypothetical situation an EV may outlast an ICE. However the ICE is getting no damage either in this world. So who can say.
However Renault saying they will last longer than ICE because the batteries aren’t aging as badly as they thought is still completely untrue. Far more issues with long term EV ownership than just battery age.
When we have some 20 year plus EVs with hundreds of thousands of miles on them still driving around then maybe that will be true.
Would you care to elaborate and show a reasonably credible source backing up whatever you think is such a big problem?
Ah so now it’s elaboration and credible sources.
I’m already one up on this with an article from the FT about insurance costs being higher due to the increased likelihood of an electric car write off.
How about some actual evidence they’re more reliable? Other than your bizarre hypothetical arguments.
Here’s a couple just off the top of my head that I can’t be bothered to get links for.
Tied to the dealer. There’s very few independent EV garages. 95% of the time you’ll have to take the price for any repair they offer you. You can’t shop around.
Complexity. Although they often use the “one moving part” argument with all the extra infrastructure for charging etc they can have very bespoke electric parts. Which means no simple of the shelf pattern parts that are as good for much less. Dealer parts only.
Delay in these parts. There just isn’t enough of a parts infrastructure at the moment. This can even cover simple things like lights or trim.
Not enough technicians.
Recall the decades it took to create vehicles that could be sold (fueled, serviced, places that didn’t even have fucking roads) when we transitioned from horses to ICE.
It’s a transition period, we’re in the early days, of course there aren’t enough technicians or knowledge about long term use and abuse on these new systems; it doesn’t mean we should continue to embrace millions of tiny explosions to propel us down the road, emitting tons of CO2 and other pollutants.
You don’t look at the problem and think: oh this is gonna take time and effort, best to just die in our own effluence instead.
All of your experience, all of the expertise passed down to you and taught was the end of a very, very long tail. You only see one future because of that.
Uh, yeah? If you’re going to make a vague claim without evidence it’s fair to ask for details and some assurance that you’re not making things up
Again, you’re talking about fragility - something being easy to break when acted on by an external thing. Reliability is about a car breaking down on its own. Something can be fragile, unreliable, both, or neither.
Still has nothing to do with the likelihood of a car breaking down with normal use - in fact, you’re kind of proving my point because if they did break down all the time, maybe you’d see EV shops opening up? Or existing shops branching out? Not sure why you think they’d refuse the business opportunity
Again, NONE of this has anything to do with the likelihood of a car breaking down. You’re predicting (maybe accurately, maybe not) what would happen if a breakdown were to happen. And your points aren’t really inherent to electric vehicles as much as they are to less-common ones. Much of what you said could apply to a kei truck brought in from Japan, a decades-old car, a supercar, or a car you just don’t see on the road as often like a Smart car or Mini Cooper.
Still no evidence from you. Also it appears you can’t read or comprehend simple statements. I said there were more issues with electric vehicles than just batteries. I didn’t say that was anything to do with reliability. Issues with vehicle ownership impact how long that vehicle lasts. Hopefully this time it will sink in. This isn’t about durability or fragility (which are also two concepts you also don’t seem to understand) of an electric motor in a hypothetical situation.
The article isn’t about reliability it is about Electric Vehicles outlasting ICE vehicles. Which is the life of the vehicle. So includes all the things I mentioned. Unless now we’re in another hypothetical world where there are no problems whatsoever over the life of the vehicle. In which case they both last forever.
Your statements about why there aren’t EV garages is complete nonsense and shows you know nothing about the actual subject.
An ICE vehicle left in a garage when petrol in it will have significant issues after a time. The fuel will oxidize and turn to varnish, ruining the fuel pump and valves. Repair can be quite expensive, depending on how thoroughly gummed up things get.
Yes it will but it will always be significantly cheaper to repair. Since 40% of the cost of an electric car is the battery even minor damage to those means that repair is just not viable.
Nice fantasy you’ve got there. Funny how you specifically call out ‘no wind’. While the poster you’re deriding isn’t making up fantasy scenarios and is going by real world actual implications. Are people buying their cars to hide them in garages and never use them.
My point is, something can be more durable but also more fragile. The original article was talking about the durability, and the original commenter couldn’t comprehend that because of an entirely different variable that was never part of the original point.