Five days ago, drag was banned from [email protected] for using neopronouns. A comment explaining drag’s pronouns, and a comment saying “drag” isn’t a nickname, were removed with the reason “trolling”. Drag understands why someone would think that using different pronouns than most people is trolling - transphobia. However, drag is confused how on earth not liking a nickname is a violation of any rules anywhere.

Context of the removed comments:

Drag would like to pre-empt any further accusations of trolling by asking a question: If drag were a right wing troll, and you chose to freely accept drag’s pronouns, wouldn’t that completely neuter the trolling attempt? Trolling is about trying to make others upset. You don’t have to get upset when someone uses unusual pronouns. If you aren’t transphobic, then it’s impossible to troll you that way. And drag promises: drag wants you to not be transphobic. Drag is not trying to upset anyone. If you do what drag wants you to do, then you get what you want too. This is a non-issue, there’s only a problem if you want there to be.

EDIT: DRAG DID NOT TELL ANYBODY TO USE DRAG’S PREFERRED PRONOUNS.

  • lemonmelon@lemmy.world
    5·
    2 months ago

    I have also had experiences myself that could be akin to misgendering, on account of the circumstances and intent surrounding them

    That particular type of toxicity in egg culture is no different than suggesting to a lesbian that she just hasn’t taken the right dick yet. I will never understand what makes the people who partake in that behavior feel justified in their abuse. I’m sorry you had to go through that.

    I am not a “cis person” as some very pejoratively and angrily call me

    This also baffles me. Though I don’t see them as more than a vocal and offensive subgroup of the greater community, those who use “cis” and “cissy” in an abusive manner are reinforcing the acceptability of using slurs.

    All that said, on to the most directly pertinent parts:

    they would go by Me/My/Myself pronouns, and would scream transphobia if people didn’t use those pronouns

    even noun pronoun users (i.e. demon/demonself) typically also use other pronouns like they/them or ze/zir because there are cases where noun pronouns just aren’t practical or are worse than just not using pronouns at all.

    I do think that respect of pronouns is extremely important.

    This is where we get to my own hard line. I respect people’s right to individual expression, but I do not feel compelled by that respect to play along with fantasies. I respect the right to choose one’s own gender identity on the gender spectrum, but I reject outright the idea that said spectrum includes anything and everything that one’s imagination may conjure.

    In line with this, I firmly assert that first person “I/me”, “we/us”, second person “you”, and third person “they/ them” are implicitly genderless pronouns. As such, they are fair game to be used with impunity as one cannot be misgendered if no gender is implied by the pronouns used to reference them. Repudiation of good faith attempts to avoid gendering someone altogether suggests that one has no interest in finding any neutral ground, and may even seek to either weaponize compassion or undermine the identity of others.

    In dragonfucker’s case, I’m not sure I’ve seen them outright reject gender agnostic second or third person pronouns. I believe there was a comment suggesting that they didn’t accept “they/them”, but that might have been another user accusing them of that. I also have not seen them reject “you”, so I am of the assumption that they’re acting in at least semi good faith.

    That said, there is almost certainly some degree of dragonfucker purposefully acting disruptive and then crying foul when the disruptive behavior is addressed. I won’t guess at the motive, or outright condemn disruption as a valid way of making certain points. But I equally won’t defend throwing rocks and hiding one’s hands. If you aim to disrupt, expect to experience consequences. Otherwise, what is the point of disruption?

    Edit: Before anyone brings it up, I am aware of the school of thought that regards “we” as belonging to “personal gender”. In my opinion, animacy/inanimacy are not germane to the discussion in this thread; if one can be conversed with, one is not inanimate.

    • Draconic NEO@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      3·
      2 months ago

      That particular type of toxicity in egg culture is no different than suggesting to a lesbian that she just hasn’t taken the right dick yet. I will never understand what makes the people who partake in that behavior feel justified in their abuse. I’m sorry you had to go through that.

      I think it might’ve actually been worse than that, what they were saying to me, and the fact that they told me HRT + surgery is required could be considered a form of transmedicalist abuse. It really sucks that there are people like this, I wish people could just be nice and accept others for how they are. Just because I like certain dresses in a game or even that I enjoy wearing skirts and thigh highs in real life doesn’t make me a trans girl.

      ​

      This also baffles me. Though I don’t see them as more than a vocal and offensive subgroup of the greater community, those who use “cis” and “cissy” in an abusive manner are reinforcing the acceptability of using slurs.

      Yeah they’re a vocal minority, and generally I don’t listen to them but I’ve noticed them being active lately. And yeah they are just reinforcing the acceptability of using slurs and insults without consequence. Also I would argue they are devaluing the merit of calling out transphobia, because they say people are “transphobic cissies” for not agreeing or disagreeing on something they said, even if the person they said it to was literally a trans woman herself. So yeah a lot of them are super vocal trolls.

      ​

      This is where we get to my own hard line. I respect people’s right to individual expression, but I do not feel compelled by that respect to play along with fantasies. I respect the right to choose one’s own gender identity on the gender spectrum, but I reject outright the idea that said spectrum includes anything and everything that one’s imagination may conjure.

      I agree with this, I mean I will try very hard to make people feel respected and recognized but there is a point where it becomes too much and they’re pushing it too far.

      In line with this, I firmly assert that first person “I/me”, “we/us”, second person “you”, and third person “they/ them” are implicitly genderless pronouns. As such, they are fair game to be used with impunity as one cannot be misgendered if no gender is implied by the pronouns used to reference them. Repudiation of good faith attempts to avoid gendering someone altogether suggests that one has no interest in finding any neutral ground, and may even seek to either weaponize compassion or undermine the identity of others.

      I agree with this, it is very important to have a set of pronouns that are considered default and messing with these messes up language very badly. Especially when trying to replace established first-person and second person pronouns like what dragonfucker is doing.

      In dragonfucker’s case, I’m not sure I’ve seen them outright reject gender agnostic second or third person pronouns. I believe there was a comment suggesting that they didn’t accept “they/them”, but that might have been another user accusing them of that. I also have not seen them reject “you”, so I am of the assumption that they’re acting in at least semi good faith.

      They have indeed rejected gender neutral pronouns:

      Maybe it wasn’t extreme rejection or outright hostile but they have claimed they don’t accept them to a certain degree.

      ​

      That said, there is almost certainly some degree of dragonfucker purposefully acting disruptive and then crying foul when the disruptive behavior is addressed. I won’t guess at the motive, or outright condemn disruption as a valid way of making certain points. But I equally won’t defend throwing rocks and hiding one’s hands. If you aim to disrupt, expect to experience consequences. Otherwise, what is the point of disruption?

      I’m almost certain this is absolutely the motive, it was certainly the motive for DroneRights and it’s very likely dragonfucker’s motive. Though they seem to be trying to be more quiet and respectful about it. Probably hoping they wouldn’t get banned if they weren’t outwardly aggressive yet that clearly hasn’t worked out because mods who see their behavior for what it is aren’t tolerating it and honestly I don’t blame them, I’d do the same thing if I saw a situation like that developing in one of my communities, it’s just not worth it.

      ​

      ​

      Edit: Before anyone brings it up, I am aware of the school of thought that regards “we” as belonging to “personal gender”. In my opinion, animacy/inanimacy are not germane to the discussion in this thread; if one can be conversed with, one is not inanimate.

      I would agree, we generally refers to all members of the group, it doesn’t feel like it has or would have any deep gendered connotations. It’s just a way of saying all the people (or creatures) in this group (“this group” being ambiguous).