• PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de
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    20 days ago

    I thought we all agreed that “immutable” is a confusing term and that we should call it “atomic”

    edit: I was wrong

      • grue@lemmy.world
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        27 days ago

        It means a change either applied completely and successfully, or not at all (think “atomic transactions” in databases).

      • priapus
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        27 days ago

        Atomic in software refers to an operation that cant be interrupted because it happens in one step. This one of the big selling points of atomic or immutable distros. Your system will not be left in a broken state by cancelling an update because updates do not take multiple steps, unlike traditional distros.

      • Deckweiss@lemmy.world
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        27 days ago

        How could you install anything or change any setting if it was truly immutable?

        Immutable OS makes sense in certain scenarios, but not in home computing.

        • prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          26 days ago

          Do a little research, dude… Do you think you’re the first person to have those questions/issues? That’s all been addressed.

          I’ve been on an atomic/immutable distro for a few months now (Bazzite), and the experience has been great.

    • moonpiedumplings@programming.dev
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      27 days ago

      I disagree, because they are not the same thing.

      Immutable means read only root.

      Atomic means that updates are done in a snapshotted manner somehow. It usually means that if an update fails, your system is not in a half working state, but instead will be reverted to the last working state, and that updates are all or nothing.

      I create a btrfs snapshot before updates on my Arch Linux system. This is atomic, but not immutable.*

      There is also “image based” which distros like ublue (immutable, atomic) are, but Nixos (also immutable and atomic) are not.

      *only really before big updates tbh, but I know some people do configure snapshits before all updates.

      • priapus
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        27 days ago

        Fedora has pushed for the change by rebranding their immutable distros as Fedora Atomic Desktops, and these are likely the most popular immutable distros. Bazzite’s homepage also describes the distro as atomic, but never mentions the term immutable.

    • Virkkunen@fedia.io
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      27 days ago

      How is atomic less confusing? Immutable means that something doesn’t change, atomic means that it’s the size of an atom or has nuclear energy

      EDIT: I’ve learned that some people are overly pedantic about the meaning and practical use of the word “immutable”, so much so that they decided to create a bigger confusion by giving another word a completely different and exclusive meaning

      • priapus
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        27 days ago

        Atomic in software refers to an operation that cannot be interrupted, like the updates in these distros. Immutable is a more confusing term, as it leads users to believe that cannot control parts of the system, when in reality these distros still have tools to do so.

      • prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        26 days ago

        It’s not semantics, they are two different things.

        And to your edit… Are you upset that there are two different words that mean two different things? I don’t understand.

        they decided to create a bigger confusion by giving another word a completely different and exclusive meaning

        Isn’t this just how words work…?

        • dustyData@lemmy.world
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          27 days ago

          Settings live in user space. Software exist in containers like AppImage, Flatpak or Distrobox. If something need deep system integration, they can be layered on top of the system in the user layer. Immutable does NOT mean less control. Just exerting control over the system in a different, usually more systematic, automatic and deterministic way.

          • Deckweiss@lemmy.world
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            27 days ago

            Ah yes, the immutable OS, except for all of the various mutable parts.

            We should totally not call it anything less confusing.

            • prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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              26 days ago

              It’s not confusing at all… How is this any more confusing than:

              Flatpak - they’re not literally flat…

              Snap - I’ve never seen or heard any evidence of something snapping by any definition of the word I’m aware of.

              Dolphin - what the fuck is this, no sea life whatsoever!

              Kate - this is a text editor, not a person.

              Distrobox - not in an actual box.

              etc.

              • Deckweiss@lemmy.world
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                26 days ago

                The main difference to your examples is that an “immutable OS” is in fact mutable, while none of your examples describe themselves with an adjective that is contradicting with their function/inner workings.

                Flatpak is a pretty good name, because it makes software flat in the sense that it avoids having a (tall) dependency tree.

                • prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                  23 days ago

                  I installed Bottles, but was disappointed when it didn’t actually have anything to do with bottles.

                  If you think every name of every product, etc., is going to be literal… you’re gonna have a tough time in life.

                  • Deckweiss@lemmy.world
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                    22 days ago

                    Bottles is a noun and not an adjective.

                    Also bottles has no IT related meaning, while immutable does.

                    “Immutable OS” is not a product name.


                    An “immutable” OS becomes mutable whenever a user wants to change anything on it.

                    Now imagine I keep describing my car as undrivable, because it only becomes drivable when somebody gets in and drives it. - You’d think that this is a completely deranged statement.