• skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de
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    2 days ago

    Some of these ships would carry green hydrogen and new lithium batteries and old lithium batteries (to be recycled) and whatnot. Also at least some oil would be still needed for fine chemicals like meds or (idk what’s proper english term for that) large scale organic synthesis like plastics, or even straight distillates like hexane (for edible oil extraction) or lubricants. Some of usual non-energy uses of oil can be easily substituted with enough energy like with nitrogen fertilizers but some can’t

    • the argument for renewable energy isnt that we should stop using oil, its that we shouldnt burn it. why turn our limited supply of oil into CO2 and water when we can turn it into plastics, medicine, solvents, etc? around 3/4 of crude oil is used as fuel, but if renewable energy was used, the number of oil tankers would decrease by more than 75% bc local supplies would generally be sufficient for industrial, non-fuel uses

      • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        2 days ago

        bc local supplies would generally be sufficient for industrial, non-fuel uses

        this is assuming that its not just cheaper to import that needed oil? This is always going to be a fundamental problem, though maybe we already happen to produce plastic with native oil idk.

      • barsoap@lemm.ee
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        1 day ago

        Everything that comes out of a petrochemical plant can be made without oil, in fact BASF had recipes in place for decades now and is switching sources as the price shifts. Push come to shove they can produce everything from starch. It’s also why they hardly blinked when Russia turned off the gas.

        The carbon that actually ends up in steel is a quite negligible amount (usually under 1%, over 2% you get cast iron), you can get that out of the local forest, and to reduce the iron hydrogen works perfectly, the first furnances are already online.

      • jonne@infosec.pub
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        2 days ago

        There’s alternative processes, and if you avoid burning oil and coal for fuel you can basically do all that with the amount of oil that’s in easy reach instead of using tar sands or drilling into even more difficult to reach places.

        • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
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          2 days ago

          You have to be careful when talking about steel because coal is both an ingredient (steel is iron + carbon) and used for heating afaik. You can take coal out of the heating step (confusingly called steel making) but not out of the ingredient step, unless you want to find a different carbon source.

          • jonne@infosec.pub
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            2 days ago

            There’s (admittedly comparatively expensive) alternative processes, and even if you stick to the old process and just stop using coal for electricity generation you’d cut coal use by 75%.

            Not to mention, the carbon that stays in the steel doesn’t actually go into the atmosphere, so there’s less CO2 emissions for that specific use if you can substitute the fuel used for heating.

          • skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de
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            2 days ago

            you’re probably talking about direct reduced iron and it’s really a problem that can be dealt with easily, just chuck a piece of coke when it’s molten for the second time in electric arc furnace (and maybe electrodes introduce enough carbon). substituting coke with hydrogen works also on “ingredient step” if you mean by that fuel needed to reduce iron ore to iron

            maybe there’s a way to make electrowinning iron economical, and it’d be pretty green too, but i don’t know if it is workable

            e: you can also avoid need for met coal if you use methane or syngas for direct reduced iron process

        • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          2 days ago

          the problem with tar sands is a fundamental energy conversion issue. It’s really hard to refine because you don’t get nearly as much energy out as you put in, compared to something like fracking.

          It may become reasonable in the future with really cheap renewable energy and higher oil prices for example, but as of right now, it’s economically unviable.

      • skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de
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        2 days ago

        coal can be substituted to some degree with processes like direct reduction. hydrogen works but syngas from biomass or trash also works

        file styrofoam under plastics

    • auzy@lemmy.world
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      2 days ago

      I’m guessing most countries would try to recycle batteries locally. Or/and throw them onto solar systems straight away

    • ayyy
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      2 days ago

      That wouldn’t really need to be shipped around though, domestic supply can cover those needs almost everywhere.