Explanation (though I’m sure here on NCD there are plenty of tankfuckers who could correct me on any number of details here): A great deal of popular mythology has grown up around the Nazi Tiger tank in WW2, especially in comparison to the main American tank of the later war, the Sherman tank. Thing is, while the Tiger tank was a massive and dangerous beast, it was also hyperspecialized for tank-on-tank combat, which means accounts of Allied tankers going “Oh God oh fuck it’s a fucking Tiger” are not fully representative of the actual wisdom of the Tiger’s design and deployment. In reality, the Tiger was unreliable and maintenance-heavy, slow, and not particularly survivable - Tiger losses were, as the graph shows, nearly total. And of those losses, German tankers were not particularly likely to survive the loss of their tank - 80%+ of crew of destroyed German tanks were kaput.
By contrast, the Sherman was an excellent multipurpose tank which could support infantry and fight toe-to-toe with enemy armor when necessary. But, in general, we Americans preferred to let specialized, fast-moving tank destroyers and airpower to do the lifting on destroying enemy tanks. Perhaps more importantly to tankers, the survivability of the Sherman was the reverse of German tanks - the Sherman was built with escape of the crew in mind (and repairability of the vehicle, for that matter), meaning 80%+ of the crew of destroyed Sherman tanks survived, and the tank itself was often repaired and returned to combat in a matter of weeks as well.
Lend-Lease tanks are counted as all destroyed just to demonstrate the point - Lend-Lease tanks were largely in the hands of the Soviets, who considered it a comparable tank to the T-34, but didn’t keep exact records on combat losses of the Sherman. Even if 100% of them were destroyed, as the graph shows, the dreaded Tiger still doesn’t come out looking too great in comparison to the comfy compartments of a Sherman!
To be fair, we Americans liked air power to do most of the heavy lifting in basically all jobs in WWII.
FDR didn’t understand what air power would do in the war, but his decision to prioritize air power over everything else reaped enormous benefits to the antifascist forces.
Shermans outnumbered Tigers 30 to 1. So any statistics about survivability don’t apply. One could be sacrificed when there’s 29 buddies to cover your retreat.
It’s so weird how the US won using human waves yet deride all other militaries that did the same.
Ever see the Seinfeld episode where Kramer dominate the karate class made up of 9 year olds? Then the kids get him in the alley and beat Kramer up.
It’s so weird how the US won using human waves yet deride all other militaries that did the same.
“The US won WW2 using human waves” is peak noncredibility, thank you for keeping in the spirit of this sub by giving the most ridiculous takes imaginable.
The OP argued that the Sherman was better not because it was more heavily armored with a larger gun that the Tiger, but that it was mass produced.
When it’s the US sending 160,000 men into direct machine gun fire on D-Day , it’s “superior logistics”. When it’s China in the Korean War, it’s “human waves”. I’m calling attention to nationalist language. Just like the US has “Billionaires” while Russians have Oligarchs.
You don’t need to be a fan of Nazis to see hypocrisy. Maybe I watched too much MASH growing up.
NOW LISTEN HERE YOU LITTLE SHIT if we can overwhelm the logistics required to feed those MG42s on the Atlantic Wall using young men’s chests in wave after wave of Higgins boats, that’s our victory and we won’t have your petty facts despoiling our jingoistic narrative.
Explanation (though I’m sure here on NCD there are plenty of tankfuckers who could correct me on any number of details here): A great deal of popular mythology has grown up around the Nazi Tiger tank in WW2, especially in comparison to the main American tank of the later war, the Sherman tank. Thing is, while the Tiger tank was a massive and dangerous beast, it was also hyperspecialized for tank-on-tank combat, which means accounts of Allied tankers going “Oh God oh fuck it’s a fucking Tiger” are not fully representative of the actual wisdom of the Tiger’s design and deployment. In reality, the Tiger was unreliable and maintenance-heavy, slow, and not particularly survivable - Tiger losses were, as the graph shows, nearly total. And of those losses, German tankers were not particularly likely to survive the loss of their tank - 80%+ of crew of destroyed German tanks were kaput.
By contrast, the Sherman was an excellent multipurpose tank which could support infantry and fight toe-to-toe with enemy armor when necessary. But, in general, we Americans preferred to let specialized, fast-moving tank destroyers and airpower to do the lifting on destroying enemy tanks. Perhaps more importantly to tankers, the survivability of the Sherman was the reverse of German tanks - the Sherman was built with escape of the crew in mind (and repairability of the vehicle, for that matter), meaning 80%+ of the crew of destroyed Sherman tanks survived, and the tank itself was often repaired and returned to combat in a matter of weeks as well.
Lend-Lease tanks are counted as all destroyed just to demonstrate the point - Lend-Lease tanks were largely in the hands of the Soviets, who considered it a comparable tank to the T-34, but didn’t keep exact records on combat losses of the Sherman. Even if 100% of them were destroyed, as the graph shows, the dreaded Tiger still doesn’t come out looking too great in comparison to the comfy compartments of a Sherman!
To be fair, we Americans liked air power to do most of the heavy lifting in basically all jobs in WWII.
FDR didn’t understand what air power would do in the war, but his decision to prioritize air power over everything else reaped enormous benefits to the antifascist forces.
Reminds me of a WW2 joke.
If you can’t tell the identity of an infantry squad, fire a few rounds over their heads.
If they respond by a loud URRAAAAAHHHH and rapidly approaching submachinegun fire, they’re Soviet.
If they respond with rapid, accurate rifle fire, they’re British.
If they respond with immediate machinegun chatter, they’re German.
If there’s no response, and then five minutes later your position is obliterated by air strikes and artillery fire, they were American.
And that reminded me of an old Aussie WWI joke. “The English will fight to the last Australian”
Shermans outnumbered Tigers 30 to 1. So any statistics about survivability don’t apply. One could be sacrificed when there’s 29 buddies to cover your retreat.
It’s so weird how the US won using human waves yet deride all other militaries that did the same.
Ever see the Seinfeld episode where Kramer dominate the karate class made up of 9 year olds? Then the kids get him in the alley and beat Kramer up.
Kramer is the Tiger.
“The US won WW2 using human waves” is peak noncredibility, thank you for keeping in the spirit of this sub by giving the most ridiculous takes imaginable.
The OP argued that the Sherman was better not because it was more heavily armored with a larger gun that the Tiger, but that it was mass produced.
When it’s the US sending 160,000 men into direct machine gun fire on D-Day , it’s “superior logistics”. When it’s China in the Korean War, it’s “human waves”. I’m calling attention to nationalist language. Just like the US has “Billionaires” while Russians have Oligarchs.
You don’t need to be a fan of Nazis to see hypocrisy. Maybe I watched too much MASH growing up.
NOW LISTEN HERE YOU LITTLE SHIT if we can overwhelm the logistics required to feed those MG42s on the Atlantic Wall using young men’s chests in wave after wave of Higgins boats, that’s our victory and we won’t have your petty facts despoiling our jingoistic narrative.
It worked for us when used against us, and by god there’s no reason it shouldn’t work 79 years later in France.
Genuinely unsure whether the comment deserves a disgusted down vote or a disgusted but resigned up vote