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EVERYONE needs feminism.
I was taking a history class at my local junior college when the professor asked who in the class identified as a feminist. I’m an old white guy in a class full of kids (finally getting a degree) and was one of only 3 people to raise their hands. He explained that he doesn’t since he’s for equality for all or some such.
I was honestly shocked to see this 30 something guy who at least sounds fairly progressive, and who has been to some legitimately horrifying parts of the world doing conflict journalism, being blase about this fight.
We can thank Rush Limbaugh for popularizing the concept of a feminazi and poisoning public perception of feminism by purposefully misrepresenting what it stands for.
It’s one of the most obvious examples of people successfully using social engineering and manipulation of public opinion for terrible reasons and it still worked. They didnt even try to hide it.
Phylis Schlafly. She cosplayed as a frumpy housewife while turning the wheels behind the scenes to help wed the evangelical movement with the GOP. While basically advocating for women to be chained to the stove. She is one of the greatest political operatives of the 20th century, helping slow and undo SO much social progress.
TIL!! i knew it was a contrived term but i had no clue it was so centered around a single individual in its origins
one of the self defenses of patriarchy is definitely just to misinform people about whom feminism is for, and so oftentimes that’s one of the first hurdles to overcome when discussing feminism. that’s why conservative spheres are often so obsessed with the “man-hating feminazi” stereotype—even though they make up a incredibly marginal subset of “feminist” voices, giving them a platform creates a useful strawman for conservatives to argue for the need of anti-feminism.
I was very lucky insofar as to be raised by a second wave feminist mother (1970s so I think that’s the right cadre). She was active in NOW and basically an equal partner to my father in just about all things.
Had I not, I’d like to think I’d have stumbled upon it eventually.
I wish I believed in hell, so Limbaugh could burn for his two faced sophistry for eternity. Then again, he was basically the archetypal prosperity gospel flavor of Christian, so who knows.
Yeah. I think Emma Watson has also said sth similar. Feminism is, in some extent, also about people who identify as men to embrace what they perceive as womanly jobs. Being a socially acceptable stay at home dad will earn you a lot of weird looks and snarky comments questioning your sexuality.
And I understand that that’s no where close to the shit that women and people beyond the gender binary experience on a daily basis.
emma watson is lowkey the goat, i should pay more attention to what she puts out :) thanks for sharing
Ain’t this the truth.
I’m a cis guy who likes to dress feminine around the house, and figured I’d paint my nails sparkly red and green for Christmas. Went into (my very masculine place of) work with them and got a depressing amount of comments asking if I’m gay, or expressing concern that I might be.
My dudes, it’s painted nails. I’m not trying to rail you all. Not least because my standards are far higher.
And this is also why its called homoPHOBIA. Often these people are literally afraid of gay(or any other queer) people. Nothings scarier than the unknown and especially if all your life theyve told you what horrible acts they perform.
And you secretly are a little curious about it.
Heterosexuality as we know it today isn’t really real, so it makes sense. Having sex with other men (topping specifically) was just something that men did before the rise of a certain evil religion. I’m not really a scholar, but it seems to fit to me. If heterosexuality doesn’t actually exist and your religion says anything else is evil, you have to demonize sexuality heavily, and That’s exactly what happened.
If you are referring to ancient Greece/Rome as a culture where homosexuality (specifically sex between men) was normalized, that’s wrong. What actually was normal was men having sex with male kids, not adults (see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece). This is clearly something we now consider a complete abomination, obviously, but men did not use to have sex with other adult men (surely there were cases, but it was not a widespread cultural phenomenon like pederasty).
This is also why I don’t think it makes sense to use historical references to help build a moral foundation about what’s right and what’s wrong. Gay sex is fine because it’s consensual adults enjoying and not harming anybody, not because there was some golden age in which this was accepted.
First sentence, ok I’m with you.
Having sex with other men (topping specifically) was just something that men did
And the bottoms were not men then? I understand what you’re referring to, you just need to think more critically about it.
I’m not really a scholar, but it seems to fit to me.
Sounds pretty gay book bro
Maybe i should have specified ‘straight’ men (as in the culturally assumed ‘default’), but all I’ve heard about ancient sexuality has been through an incredibly homophobic culture, so you might have a pretty good point there.
Of course everyones curious and this doesnt mean that everyones queer it just means that its human nature to question things. You may be curious for a while and then find out whether youre queer or not. Nothings better than knowing who you are. These people are extremely lost and thats why you see so many of them actually be gay n stuff but they hide it and hurt people who are the same as them. Of course this is mainly about politicians that are gay but it applies to a lot more fields of life.
Right on. I peeked at other boys penises when I was very young, got called out one time I remember pretty well. Went on to be straight. Went to college and kissed a guy and made out with a guy. It didn’t work for me. I now understand I am very straight, but I’m not a fucking homophobe. I’ll tell you when you look good as a man.
One more point- I started to, and couldn’t go through with, man man woman threesome when I was young. I just don’t find men sexually interesting and everyone enjoying each other is what makes that fun.
Doing those kinds of things at home because they were fun actually led to me realizing I’m genderfluid recently. It’s been crazy facing a part of my experience of life that the patriarchal society we live in essentially deprived me of up to this point: knowing how euphoric it feels to let myself want to be pretty and feminine sometimes.
Amen to that, broster.
I’m lucky that my wife is enby and a similar size, so was happy for me to try on some of their clothes. Long story short, Vinted has enabled me to build up a small wardrobe of dresses, skirts, and pretty tops that I wear most evenings. It feels nice to feel pretty.
I’m basically Captain Shakespeare.
So far I’ve only got socks, skirts, and hair accessories (hair down to my waist). Definitely been wanting to explore other clothing now that I know myself better.
It sounds like you’re having a blast, and it’s always fun to hear about how other folks have experimented. Vinted looks neat, If you’ve got any other tips let me know lol
“bUt NoRmAlCy…” Fuck this stupid, perverse idea of normalcy. People should be free to express themselves (as long as theyre not harming anyone ofc), no matter their gender. The freedom of expression is fundamentally programmed into the human nature and must be respected in a free society.
hell yeah brother 💅
That last paragraph sounds exactly like the words that need to be uttered to them.
Growing up, I used to cross dress and lip sync my favourite divas for my friends and family. No one seemed to mind that except my parents who flipped out over it ( Catholic ).
Frankly I don’t think any child should be ashamed of having a bit of fun. I don’t remember thinking “yeah I’m gonna be a girl now” - I was just dressing up to make my sister and cousins laugh… But society loves to project it’s ideas onto kids hey!
I mean arguably even if you did “become a girl,” why’s that bad?
Cuz Catholic.
It’s a strange feeling, to look back on your life and suddenly see how society has crippled you, knowing how terrible it has been for you, and yet being such an essential part of you, you have neither desire to remove it from yourself nor regret.
Only a desire to stop it from happening to anyone else.
This, right here, is why I’m an extremely vigilant mentor for people in my industry. It will eat you alive and take until there’s nothing left. Not letting that happen to anyone.
Same stance on parenting: my kids get to be whoever they want to be, and I’m right there with them. The only thing they can’t be is an asshole
I wouldn’t be able to stand up for others as effectively if I hadn’t been at least somewhat hardened by the bullshit and bullying by now.
Unfortunately HTFU is valuable advice in a lot of blue collar spheres. When I give it I typically caveat that it’s only a shell, and you have to remember how to take it off.
HTFU?
Hulk The Fuck Up? (labor)
Hate The Fucking Users? (IT)
Has Tomorrow’s Finality Urged (ADHD)
Have To Finally Unwind (everyone)
Having Tits Fixes U (confused)
Hawk Tuah Feminist Union (strong straight women)
How The Fuck U still awake (me)
having tits is fixing me :3
I’m stealing some of these, but guessing from OP context it’s probably Harden The Fuck Up.
Edit: Also, I wanna see a logo for the Hawk Tuah Feminist Union. Like, really badly.
How did I miss it? I just tell the new guys to look at my scars and decide if they want to look like that.
They tried. Oh, sibling, did they try…
And the worst part is that you’re fucked either way. If they manage to get you to murder your own soul, you’re a husk. If they don’t, you’re a pariah.
Living life as a pariah isn’t so bad, normal people admire when your principles haven’t been cynically beat into the dirt
And it’s not just that, it’s the feeling of maintained integrity one has for oneself, it’s such an honest and healthy kind of pride to have! I kept hearing the adage that “principles can’t keep you fed” over and over while growing up. Even during University, and it was a fucking acting school. But having lived both with and without my principles, I’d rather die starving with my principles intact.
I have no use for the acceptance I’d receive from such fearful, hateful and greedy people. Thanks, but I’d rather love life and its infinite diversity.
I was talking more from the perspective of trying to exist within the patriarchal system, healthy cohabitation is functionally impossible. Even if one tries to walk the edge in between, one will only end up with lacerated feet.
“Stand a little less between me and the sun.”
-you
Maybe not raw Diogenes, but he did have something going on there!
I mean, how can one look upon what we’re doing to each other and not go “what the fuck,” y’know? At least a little bit, like under their breath, so as to not be smacked by Daddy for asking relevant questions.
Become numb if you do, or become shunned if you don’t. And not to talk about bottling emotions and not letting them out healthily… because a bottle can only hold so much stuff until it explodes
that’s what I have been sayinh
Kind of feels like an attempt to be deep that dives so far into analogy that it actually contradicts nuance and becomes shallow instead.
Like if reality were a 5 this quote would represent it as a 10.
“Be a man”, “Real men don’t cry”, “Crybaby”, “Man up”, “That show is for women”, “That sounds super gay”
This is what pop culture tells men to say to other emotionally sensitive men.
This is specifically why I am no longer a man.
ugh i’m sorry :( i hope there is also a positive predicate for your transition in addition to this negative one, but it’s certainly apparent how the derisive treatment of amab individuals can play into their future expression of gender identity. thanks for sharing <3
Curiously, the masculine values I was taught as a kid and young adult would turn into simply adulting in the 21st century: Taking responsibility for essential business and duties (even if they’re not designated as mine) Paying bills on time (or negotiating to not lose utility service); keeping conflicts civil, not retaliating harmfully over petty grievances. (I am a good ex and take pride in it.)
Values like these were common in the 70s and 80s during the cold war, that use of force was only done after deliberation and all alternatives were exhausted.
Curiously, that these were masculine values implied they weren’t feminine values, that women were implied not to be capable or expected of upholding this code of conduct… except when I was a kid, there were too many examples of women who could and did. And yeah, by the aughts everyone not a politician or an aristocrat was expected to adult and was penalized when they didn’t.
And in the 2020s our masculine role models are Donald Trump, Matt Walsh, Joe Rogan, Ben Shapiro, etc. who conduct themselves the opposite of these ideals. Also there’s valid concern that Trump might order a nuclear strike if provoked.
Now even as a kid I didn’t feel particularly driven to express my masculinity and was for a while a gender abolitionist, seeing an ideal world where it didn’t matter except to partners and intimates.
But then in the trans community, there are people who really like being a woman / being a man and expressing that identity outwarldly. Gender expression and representation are super important to them the way it’s not at all to me.
So I’m happy to be enby, not only retaining the values I grew up with, but recognizing they suit anyone, not just guys.
Yeah but thats not the self mutilation to kill off all emotions. Thats just denying a subset of actions and interests.
As I said it is exaggerated pretty steeply. There exists naturally manly men, including trans men, who are perfectly fine on an emotional level. To be manly doesn’t mean to be a walking husk devoid of all feeling.
Its still a legitimate issue, don’t get me wrong, I just find the wording really edgy, possibly slightly cringe.
It’s sad to me that you feel the need to disavow genuine discussion of men’s mental and emotional health as “overexaggerated cringe.” That shit kills.
See that’s just it, though, I explicitly did the apposite of what you just suggested. I disavowed disingenuine discussion.
If anything, it’s sad to me that you feel the need to label our enemies as mentally ill. I think a good way to approach societal issues like this doesn’t involve exaggerated labels and dramatizations to denigrate them as weak incompetents, rather we should acknowledge that they are human beings and the default state of human beings is to lower the standing of others and empower ourselves. We’re greedy and selfish as a default. We need to built systems to mitigate damage done to each other, just like the Civil Rights Bill did.
I did not label anyone as the enemy? You seem to be drastically misunderstanding this whole thing in that case. Men are victims under patriarchy, too. That is in fact the whole point of this post. The enemy is the patriarchy, a systemic structure.
I mean, Patriarchy is my enemy so if it’s not your enemy then I don’t think we can be friends, lol
Ah you are deeply equivocating two distinct terms. Men, as women, can suffer from mental illness. The patriarchy is a system, not some person or group, and cannot suffer from mental illness. Your misunderstanding of these terms is getting in your way.
skill issue, just say you don’t get it bro
As if this is somehow down to “patriarchy”? It takes two to tango! Denying the role of women in the shaping of someone’s ability to handle and process emotion is really a disservice to anyone who wants equality between sexes. Blaming others is not the way to change.
when feminists use the word “patriarchy” they mean exactly what you describe here. your misconception of the term is what is getting in your way here—there is no blame to any one, only the structure. highly recommended you read more of bell hooks’ work as she does an excellent job of explaining yours and other misconceptions with a focus on accessibility for a male audience :)
A term inherently sexist to supposedly describe something else. Trying to shift responsibility. Sorry, that is gas lighting. You can have one, but not both. Chose and let your choice speak for which part of the problem you are on.
Simone de Beauvoir
Simone de Beauvoir-
“It is a difficult matter for women to accept their role as servants to life, and they only succeed in so far as they find compensations in the society that subjugates them. These compensations are transmitted from mother to daughter, perpetuating the subjugation.”
(The Second Sex) -
“The fact that we are human beings is infinitely more important than all the peculiarities that distinguish human beings from one another; however, women, in submitting to patriarchal society, often become the most fervent defenders of their own oppression.”
(The Second Sex)
bell hooks
bell hooks- “Women and men alike have been socialized to accept sexist thought and action. As a consequence, women can be just as sexist as men.”
(Feminism is for Everybody)
Emphases mine. Both notable feminist voices. Hope these can get you started on the path to overcoming your passed down misconceptions. And don’t worry—it’s not your own fault that you have this confusion— patriarchy’s greatest self defense is in subverting (lying about) the meaning of feminist language to you.
Ok, so you link texts that say that women (as well as feminism, obviously) can be just as sexist as men, yet you take affront to my pointing out that the terminology used is sexist?
Which part of it is it that you have such a hard time coming to terms with? That women, by default, is not always the victim, or is it that men is not always the perpetrator? These terms you use to defend the sexism in feminism is getting in the way of what needs to be done.
That’s not your fault, you’ve been ingrained with it. The fact that you need an A-level university course to be able to make the mental gymnastics needed to understand such language without revolting speaks for its own. Or how was it you phrased it “get you started on the path…”
precisely what @[email protected] said.
“patriarchy” is literally just a greek term for a household that had a man at the head. there is no blame inherent in the term, as it describes a system, not people.
so yes. men, by default, are not always the perpetrator, and women, by default, are not always the victim. we agree on this. the system of patriarchy hurts everyone and feminism is for everyone. you continue to adamantly disagree with this over a misunderstanding of a single word.
i haven’t taken any university course on this, despite your assertion. you are just getting one word wrong, and for this again i recomend you read bell hooks; she writes short works in a way that is meant to be accessible to laypeople like us.
Good on you for treating this person with so much patience.
It’s only the way you misconstrued patriarchy that’s at issue here. It disagrees with a fundamental part of the thinking of reducing inequity.
Of course women have been, are, and will be part of the patriarchy. You’re not wrong, people just aren’t happy with the way you expressed yourself.
yet you take affront to my pointing out that the terminology used is sexist?
A system that enforces gender roles is of course going to be sexist by definition. It would be incredibly difficult to talk about a system with strictly enforced gender roles without talking about gender or their roles.
Which part of it is it that you have such a hard time coming to terms with? That women, by default, is not always the victim, or is it that men is not always the perpetrator?
That is exactly what is being said in the OP, so I don’t understand what you’re disagreeing with here.
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really sad that you woke up this morning with your listening skills turned off. i wish better and more open minded days for your future ❤️
edit: see https://lemmy.cafe/comment/9072032 for a serious response. apologies for being flippant.
You are so much nicer than me, like wow.
The text: “men make other men feel like shit for having emotions”
This guy: “Wow it’s still clearly the women’s fault, stop blaming other people”
The jokes just write themselves here.
There is plenty of women who uphold these toxic ideas and reinforce these structures too.
It is wrong to consider “patriarchy” or any other social construct to be the sole responsibility of any one gender, and as long as we are in the blame-game stage, like @[email protected] still seems to be, it will slow us down.
However i find it important to understand where this could come from. E.g. women, in particular mothers, who have been reinforcing toxic masculinity or femininity could be perceived as the major source for individuals because their mother has been the one reinforcing it. For other people it would be the father or other male figures in their lives, so they consider it to come exclusively from men.
Anectodtically my perception is that there is a problem with showing emotions in front of others in general in western societies, that is reinforcing toxic masculinity, but transcendents “patriarchy” as an issue, as many societies considered more patriarchal allow display of emotions both for women and men more freely.
Blame game stage? Perhaps? My view is that there are few innocents, but the terminology and discourse is very strict in it’s perspective.
Same as any other discrimination. There is always one part that has it worse, but it is never a one way street. Perhaps easiest to see with age, where each age group has their resentments against the others. Both are equally generalisations, though. Equally wrong.
i dont see where it says is just men meows, cuz women can be patriarchal an support patriarchy too, so saying its patriarchal is more about society as a whole, men and women an evryones really
I highly recommend reading the rest of the book. bell hooks acknowledges the roles that women play in inflicting the harms on boys and men. Reading that book was the most understood I had ever felt as a cis man who until then didn’t really know what feminism was about.
