Looking for some testimonials on these setups as I’m due for a keyboard upgrade. I like the thought of spreading my arms a bit more and the external wrist rotation from the tenting. Any suggestions?
I was the IT Director for a company that had a lot of data entry people. I had noticed that the keyboards that they were using were mostly plain jane, mismatched, membrane keyboards. After a bit of back and forth with purchasing I convinced the company to purchase a ton of mechanical (cherry reds), split ergonomic keyboards.
Within a month RSI reports were down by 95% and after 2 months were essentially nonexistent. I also noticed that people had stopped wearing wrist braces as well. I paired this with good, well shaped mice that would hopefully lead to less fatigue with repetitive motion.
My sample size is tiny, but there are 30 some odd people who if asked, would back me up on this. So while not thoroughly scientifically proven, I am willing to say that ergonomic keyboards do make a big difference. I think mechanical makes a pretty big difference too. Cherry reds activate with very little pressure and, imo, make typing long documents or notes much less annoying/stressful/painful/
@improbablynotarobot I own several split keyboards at this point and very much prefer them. I have RSI and it’s much more comfortable to type and helps keep my wrists at a comfortable angle.
As for tenting I haven’t experimented with it much, but I know that a lot of people swear by it.
I have bi-lateral carpaltunnel (Mild left, moderate right) and have found it greatly managed in my life as a heavy computer user for work and pleasure by changing my keyboard to the Kinesis Advantage 2. This is an expensive keyboard that definitely isn’t in a lot of people’s range but thankfully work was able to get it for me to prevent further RSI.
I swear by this damn keyboard though. The split and boxy design perfectly aligns to my shoulder width, and my arms out in front of me rest very comfortably on the pads below each hand-well. The keys are ortholinear meaning instead of the usual QWERTY keyboards having a slight staggering of the keys (and thus, at least for me, I have a lot of micro-adjusting of my hands and wrist as I’m typing) the keys being aligned straight up and down where my fingers are resting means all I have to do is flex my fingers foward and back to hit the proper key. Having the very often used keys on my thumbs (backspace/delete/enter/control/alt/windows+CMD key) mean no more stretching out my pinky to push it.
Far more affordable options include the Iris split keyboards that are DIY in a kit (you provide your own key switches), which I’ve had my eye on for a long while but could never seem to tear myself away from the advantage 2. Since I’ve been issued a new laptop with work that is a lot thinner and easier to work out of a coffeeshop or drop-in desk somewhere with, I might start revisiting that conversation.
For completeness sake - I use a logitec Ergo M575 trackball mouse. I grew up laughing at a family member who worked in tech for using this kind of mouse back when it was that ball of clay and an optical sensor. I’m not laughing anymore now that I have to use it so my hands don’t hurt from work at by the end of the day 😭
I’m a DevOps Engineer and thus, I spend 8+ hours at a keyboard a day… I finally decided that I should spend some money on a device i was going to use that much of my life and I now have two Iris’s I built. I’m using one to write this that I made last year so i could leave the one I built back in 2019 at the office. Both were v2’s. I can’t recommend them enough. Takes a little getting used to as you’ll want to figure out your layers and play with QMK for things like adding a numpad under a layer and adding in special keys and macro’s and such, but It’s been well worth it. My wrist pain completely went away. Between that and either logitech trackball, It’s been a great setup for 4yrs now and I can’t go back to normal keyboards for any decent amount of time before starting to feel sore. FWIW, the new Iris Rev 7’s make it so there’s almost no soldering or anything.
My setup is Tented as well, and I made matching wrist wrests to match the contour and tenting angles.
Technical Details:
I used my original Iris for 3 yrs before deciding I should use what I had laying around to make this one. I bought two sets of PCB’s when I originally got the v2’s as it was my first mechanical keyboard build and I didn’t want to worry about screwing it up. But I didn’t have any issues, so I had another set of PCBs laying around that whole time. I decided for this one I’d go all out and make a custom bottom of walnut and I had laser cut brass top plates. I also used Millmax sockets for the keyswitches so they’re hot-swappable. Then, since the v2’s still require your to solder your own Arduino Pro Micro’s, I swapped those out for nice!nano’s so it’s fully BlueTooth wireless both between the halves and to the PC. I’ve filled it with Hako Trues and MT3 White-on-Black doubleshot keycaps. So far, I’ll say the True’s are a bit stiff sometimes, but I still quite enjoy typing on this thing.
Yeah the split seems more justifiable but tenting seems ergonomic too. Curious at to if you leverage extra thumb keys or dynamic switching of rows too. Seems like it has a learning curve but I like the idea of keeping closer to home row
@improbablynotarobot I do! My main keyboard is an Ergodox, and I make heavy use of the extra thumb keys. Having enter/del/backspace on my thumbs alone is really nice, and I also keep a layer toggle next to them. Commonly used keys, like my navigation cluster and a numpad stay close to the home row on two different layers.
The one thing I don’t make much use of is symbols on layers, which takes a bit more getting used to than I’ve put time in for. Instead I just use the dedicated number row.
I bought a moonlander by ZSA about a year ago.
I found the split allows for a much more relaxed position while writing, and being able to adjust the halves individually when I reposition myself is very comfortable.
They also have the benefit of having thumb clusters, giving more work to the strongest finger of the hand.
Another benefit I find is that most split keyboards are fully programmable, which makes customizing it to your needs very nice.
The only drawback I find to this keyboard (apart from the price, which is not cheap) is that it is hefty, and not easy to transport. The fact that it is wired clutters a bit the desktop, if this is something that concerns you.
I recently built a corne low profile yo have something more transportable and wireless, but this is much more involved, as the configuration goes through writing code and not a nice UI.
However the comfort of this new board is very nice.
There was a whole subreddit dedicated to ergonomcal keyboards, ErgoMechKeyboards, which is very interesting to browse, as what I have done is seen as extreme by my coworkers, but tame compared to what some people are do.
Fellow Moonlander + Corne user here. Once I accepted that I was never realistically going to take my Moonlander on the go, I sprang for the Platform kit. It’s a huge improvement over the stock tenting legs.
Column stagger and ortholinear keyboards are an ergonomic wonder. Everyone’s hands are different of course, but I find them really comfortable.
Another big plus for ZSA products is their software. The graphical configurator is really powerful and nice to use. It adds a lot of features on top of what’s natively available in QMK. I’ve only manually tweaked my firmware once, and that was for a particularly niche and convoluted use case.
I imagine a split keyboard requires you to at least type properly?
I’m a software engineer with wrist issues, and would love to use an ergonomic keyboard, but I never really learned to type properly. I often have my hands overlapping the opposite sides of the keyboard. I’ll use all finger on my hands, but mainly it’s my pointer, middle, and ring finger doing the typing. I feel like this would be impossible on a split kayboard, and would take a crazy amount of time to get back up to speed typing properly.
The way to learn to touch is simple but annoying. Figure out how to hit backspace every time.
From here all you do is never look down. You hit the wrong key? Backspace. Try again. You can look at the keyboard sometimes, but not while typing.
It will take a while but eventually your error rate drops very quickly and you are good.
This process works very well on split keyboards.
I’ve been usung a Moonlander for a couple of months after a friend at work lent me his Ergodox EZ. The learning curve for someone who’d been trying freestyle for 30 years was tough, but I definitely prefer it now I’m accustomed.
Most ergo keyboard users are somewhat zealous, so if you know someone who uses one, they may be happy to lend you one on a temp basis.
I’ve got a Moonlander I’ve been using on and off for a while now, it’s hard to fully commit when I’m so comfortable typing on a 60% or 65%.
Agreed about people lending, I’ve let coworkers and friends borrow keyboards and even let some friends keep them because I have too many.
I’m not a big fan. I am somewhat of an outsider with a preference for trackballs over mice, though. MX ERGO FTW
I’ve built several. They are worth every penny. Not only reduced pain in the hands, wrist, and forearms. Also in my shoulders. I’m a fairly wide human and split tented allows you to place the separate parts at a more natural distance for shoulder/arm width.
My mother eve ended up stealing my last build. She’s not complained since and travels with it for work.
As a builder, would you say there’s a somewhat budget pre-built option that’s decent that lazy and curious people like me can look at?
I’m not having a lot of trouble with my body with the regular keyboards, but they do force.me into specific positions when I have to do actual work, because I need both sides of it rather than just the gaming one when I play.
Of the pre-builds you are going to be looking in the 200-300 range for any of the Ortho range. But to get started you could look at the Kinesis. They are in the 100-200 range, offer tenting and are split. Can often find them used on eBay as well. This was my entry into the custom keyboard world. Beware that rabbit hole though, it’s deep and can get super super expensive.
While I do not use tenting or physically split keyboards, I have been using ergonomic split keyboards for ~16 years. Not sure if that exactly fits the category you are looking at.
The specific keyboards have been the Microsoft natural ergonomic keyboard 4000, Microsoft Sculpt, and Logitech ERGO K860. I’ve been gaming on the PC since the early 90s and have been in IT and software development for ~26 years.
I have had no issues with carpal tunnel or RSI. While I obviously cannot say it was 100% due to the split keyboard design I believe it has likely helped to keep those issues at bay. Once you are used to a split keyboard design you can feel the pitch and stress on your wrists when using a standard keyboard. I have also always used the riser that rises the wrist end of the keyboard so you fingers are sort of “falling” down toward the keys.
I used that Microsoft 4000 keyboard for years, cleaned out the membrane on it 2 or 3 times before I had to replace the entire keyboard. Then was left hunting for something to replace it; I tried a lot of keyboards. In the end I’ve settled on the Logitech K860.
I have a pretty similar bio except I’m not into gaming. I will say the feeling of going to a non-split keyboard is immediate now. I’m at a phase in my career where I’m in meetings all day so I don’t mind it was much when it happens but a few years ago I’d be having wrist pain after a couple of hours of working on a standard keyboard.
I tried the sculpt as well but found it was having issues with key repeat or just losing connectivity so I went back to a wired keyboard (MS Natural).
Any thoughts on why the Logitech is better or were you just ready for a change?
I had the exact same issue with the Microsoft Sculpt, it would disconnect much too often. There is a setting in Windows that sort of helped it but not fully. I also missed the standard cursor keys placement (home/end/pg) and the number pad as I will often punch in some numbers or even hit the enter key over there just to mix it up a bit.
The Logitech is a full width/key keyboard so cursor manipulation muscle memory is great, that was something I was still getting used to on the Sculpt. The Logitech does not disconnect as much as the Sculpt and there are no repeat key presses, it does however still disconnect at times and it is most obvious when trying to copy or paste. Overall the Logitech is the board I like best since the natural 4000.
If there was pie in the sky I’d like a full key, ergonomic split, wired, and hot swap keys so I can just fix any key that has an issue in the future. I searched high and low for that combination and haven’t found one that checks all the boxes. There are split mechanical keyboards but they are always missing a feature like: not hot swap, short the cursor keys, have shuffled the cursor keys, or dropped the number pad. There is one mechanical keyboard that comes extremely close but the keys are not hot swap.
My first split was a Moonlander which I still have and use, and I love it. Then I got a Rollow and a Waterfowl (both on group buys) and I absolutely adore them.
It does take some reprogramming the muscle memory to get used to a split ortho, but it’s been worth it. I can type longer without my wrists hurting, and the freedom in key customisation is awesome.
Using a split lets me keep my hands further apart, so my shoulders are back in a more natural position. That has helped quite a bit with upper back pain.
I tent the Moonlander, but not my other two. Tenting is really comfortable, but I’d recommend starting flat and increasing angle gradually since the split ortho is already a lot to get used to.
Switching to a split is also a good time to switch to another layout like colemak if you have any interest. Your fingers will be slightly confused anyway. Doing that helped me keep my QWERTY muscle memory for normal keyboards.
I tried using a split keyboard at work for a while but I found that it was too difficult to use all the symbols and extra keys. I’m a programmer so I need to type brackets and colons and things constantly. I bet it would be pretty easy to get used to for someone who mostly types actual English.
Oh yeah that’s definitely a challenge. I had to tweak it some, but luckily I found Miryoku so I can get all the special characters without reaching too far. Even bound a key to :: for Rust. It does take quite a while to get used to though and I had to switch off with a normal keyboard at the beginning when I needed to get something done quickly.
I’ve been using a Microsoft natural keyboard since 1998. I switched over to the Elite when they came out and I have several spares stockpiled. They helped a lot with the wrist comfort and honestly they improved by typing by enforcing which fingers press which keys.
I have a hard time using a straight keyboard, not because I can’t adapt but because they’re just plain uncomfortable. So when a thing hurts when you do it then you stop doing it. You’ll see.
I printed out and mostly built a Dactyl keyboard but never got around to finishing it because work is super picky about what USB devices can be hooked up to our machines and QMK firmware will absolutely look like a mouse jiggler to their security scanning software. I had to unplug a frickin’ volume knob because it was alerting every day as a security risk or something.
Same here. People give me a hard time for having a 15 year old Dell-branded Natural Pro keyboard and a stockpile of spares but they seem to last forever and fit me so well, ergonomically.
I started off with the quefrency, a split ‘normal’ keyboard, then started making my own (3d printed handwired) orthos.
Then I saw the alu case for iris and got tempted but am unwilling to drop >$300 on a layout I’ve never used before, so designed my own case with tilt and 3d printed and handwired that (all for ~£30 only!! split orthos CAN be cheap! - my first post on Lemmy was on this :D) And have been daily driving it so far
Column staggered is defo the way to go
I’m going down that rabbit hole as well - I’ve already built a handwired 3d printed keyboard and my current project is a split with a 4-way switch as a thumb cluster - inspired by the Fulcrum and in case I need a different cluster, this part of the case is modular.
My next build was (probably) going to be a remix of the iris and I wanted to include a joystick so I could use it 4 ways (towards left, highlight words to left; to right, layer; up down, vol controls).
I’d never come across 4/5 way switches before so that’s definitely something I’ll be looking into! Thanks for sharing!!
What CAD program do you use for designing your cases?
Ah you’re right, it’s a 5 way switch - forgot the “push” action. I’m using realthunders’ branch of FreeCAD - it is really convenient to use compared to the normal release.
Oh I might have to take a look at that, I also use FreeCAD! Damn look at all these things you’re introducing me to 😂
That’s awesome, glad to hear that! If you’re still learning it like me, I can really recommend the videos by OficineRobotica on YouTube (like quick recap on some additions to the branch and the series about building a Raspberry Pi case)
Have the Moonlander, love it. Watch Ben Valleck(spelling)‘s Videos.
Seconding Ben Vallack’s videos. He really goes down the rabbit hole of split keyboards.
More anecdata, but 10-15 years ago I started getting RSI/carpal tunnel symptoms in both hands. I switched to tented keyboards (mainly Kinesis) and vertical mice (Anker among others) and the symptoms went away. I was able to finish out a programming career until I retired a few years ago. So thumbs-up from me. If you’re on a Mac, the Kinesis Freestyle is perfectly plug & play. I would recommend checking out a vertical mouse at the same time.
I had an ergodox for a while. It was nice but it also did hurt more at the start but then I felt way better than with a normal keyboard. Are you experiencing RSI?
Not much, probably a minor case of it if so. Trying to get ahead of it at least but also just like the thought of moving towards a more ergonomic setup
Thanks for the advice!
I’ve been trying so hard to get one, sadly where I live, this category is basically nonexistent.
I think they’re very good if you use your computer for a whole lot of typing and nothing else. Using a DVORAK keyboard instead of a QWERTY one will also improve your WPM and QoL when typing, once you’re used to it. If you’re a writer or a programmer, it’s worth considering.
But much like DVORAK vs QWERTY, any non-typing tasks become affected. It’s awkward playing PC games, for example, when some of your shortcuts for inventory/map are far enough from your kb hand to need your mouse hand. You also don’t have much range to choose from, so may have to make compromises on things like keypress feedback, simultaneous presses, unit price, etc.
I learned to touch-type on a tented keyboard with a mild split. When I replaced it, I got a ‘Wave’ keyboard - not split, but slightly tented, and had depressions and curves to match the wrist and the finger lengths at rest on the home row. Both of them were membrane keyboards (full-depth keypress). Despite being a membrane keyboard, the Wave was still as chunky and loud as most mechanical keyboards.
But now, I’m just using a generic full-length mechanical keyboard (partial keypress) with relatively quiet switches, one chosen as a good compromise between gaming (sensitivity) and typing (feedback). I’ve changed my resting position a little so that my wrists are still in an A shape (not an H shape), but I’m finding the keys much more comfortable.
The old ergonomic keyboards didn’t give much choice and in hindsight the feedback on the keys on the Wave felt AWFUL compared to what I use now. A split/tent mechanical keyboard might be different, but then price becomes a consideration. Swapping to a mechanical keyboard made the biggest difference to my comfort typing. (And don’t let tall/loud keys fool you - not every chunky keyboard is mechanical.)
Interesting take on the gaming aspect! I’ve decided to try out the Moonlander and gaming is my main task after programming (sometimes before lol). Hoping the customization software gets me around some of the issues with having the buttons too far away.
I’ve got the EZ and it’s not really a problem. Have a button to switch between my QWERTY (gaming) and colemak (everything else) layers. I occasionally forget to switch and wonder why I can’t strafe right but it’s fine.
