If an organization exists that has the ability to cover up it’s involvement in things like this reliably and very rarely leaves behind hard evidence, and I’m a rando trying to piece together what happened 70 years later, then it seems like circumstantial evidence is the best I could reasonably expect to find.
This is word for word the logic of right wing conspiracy theorists who ascribe every thing they don’t like to Jews.
Have you actually tried to piece it together, though? Have you at the very least googled who these people are, what sort of plausible chronology could be reconstructed, anything? Have you noticed that Kiraly, who was involved in the 1956 revolution and subsequently left the country, lived in US at the time of the letter (1963)? Is it not worthy of considering that the HFFF Inc. was based in the US and was founded by Kiraly and similar Hungarians in exile?
This isn’t a court of law where the standard is either, “100%, beyond any reasonable doubt, or they didn’t do it.”
In court of law, an admission is pretty solid proof. Your meme says the involvement was admitted. I guess it wouldn’t look as convincing or funny if the meme said they admitted they funded some organisation outside of Hungary 7 years after the actual event.
you can keep imagining that this Hungarian Freedom Fighters org connected to the CIA was, I don’t know, selling dinner plates or something
Your arguments are growing thin. Your narrative is actually made up of vague connections with a 7-year gap. I don’t even intend to suggest to know what HFFF actually did or whether CIA was involved in 1956 Hungary, my point is only that this is neither admission nor meaningful proof of anything other than that they did fund some dissidents outside Hungary in 1963. (They obviously funded dissidents all over the place throughout the decades, I mean, they’d be crazy not to, and 1956 Hungary wouldn’t surprise me either, I suppose.)
See, while trawling through these JFK files right wingers have already found a connection with Jews, as tenuous as it is, and tout it as solid proof it was them who had JFK killed, because after all we already know Jews are nefarious and evil, and clearly any weak connection to JFK’s death is good enough - of course (((they’ve))) scrubbed the proof, etc. so internet randos can go creative. Or maybe some higher standards for proof would be in order…
This is word for word the logic of right wing conspiracy theorists who ascribe every thing they don’t like to Jews.
Really? Can you name 5 world leaders who were overthrown by a secret Jewish cabal the way I can for the CIA, just off the top of my head? I think, maybe, there might be a little bit of a difference there.
This comparison is so fucking stupid that it ends up being antisemitic, because by equating the two you’re implying that this secret Jewish cabal both exists and has similar power and influence as the most powerful and well funded spy agency on the planet that has a very long and well documented history orchestrating coups and color revolutions and successfully covering up their involvement for decades, that also, you know, actually exists. Get a grip!
In court of law, an admission is pretty solid proof. Your meme says the involvement was admitted. I guess it wouldn’t look as convincing or funny if the meme said they admitted they funded some organisation outside of Hungary 7 years after the actual event
Yes, my meme made use of an existing meme and the phrasing of the original wasn’t 100% accurate. I apologize because my username and avatar seems to have caused some confusion, but this is actually an online meme community and not a court of law.
See, while trawling through these JFK files right wingers have already found a connection with Jews, as tenuous as it is, and tout it as solid proof it was them who had JFK killed, because after all we already know Jews are nefarious and evil, and clearly any weak connection to JFK’s death is good enough - of course (((they’ve))) scrubbed the proof, etc. so internet randos can go creative. Or maybe some higher standards for proof would be in order…
Again, the difference is I can point to countless times where that actually happened with the CIA and they can’t do that with Jews! I stg, it’s like, if I hear about a black person who was found strung up from a tree in the 20’s, I’m gonna go, “Huh, seems like it was probably white supremacists like the KKK” but apparently you’ll then chime in with “wElL hOw Do YoU nNoW iT wAsN’t AsIaN sUpReMaCiStS, hUh?” Because one of them is a real thing that actually existed at that time and place with significant power and a track record of doing that sort of thing repeatedly and getting away with it, and the other is a made up delusion.
Antisemitic conspiracy theorists would certainly be glad to send you extensive “evidence” that e.g. the Russian revolution was also supported by Jews, or various other political manipulations that they’ve supposedly carried out (why only limit it to toppling governments?). Now, as I’ve talked with these people enough times, I found it is impossible to spend days trying to check all the nonsense they may throw at me, and in general any discussion of any topic ever could be extended into eternity. What is perfectly reasonable is to abstract the individual case and figure out how it may plausibly be explained by itself. Antisemitic nonsense always fails here. In this case, so does your ascription of 1956 to CIA based on this particular document. The wider picture is different, as I’ve already said, it’s simply much more logical that CIA has supported anti-communist movements than that the antisemitic bullshit about the Jews is true. But if your standards are low enough to be convinced by a conjecture as weak as this one, that does lead me to worry about whether your general conviction on CIA’s actions is well-founded either.
I mean it is very obvious that you don’t want to inquire into this any further or discuss the contents and context of the document, I’ve simply checked Wikipedia on Kiraly and it looks like I’ve already done more research about it than you have. All you have are implications, you haven’t addressed the chronology, who was active where and when…
if I hear about a black person who was found strung up from a tree in the 20’s, I’m gonna go, “Huh, seems like it was probably white supremacists like the KKK”
This is a good comparison too - “in the 20’s”, you say, but the document you posted is not from the relevant decade, and is even from a different continent.
Besides, even just ctrl+F’ing “CIA” in the Wikipedia article on the revolution shows that yes, CIA did emit materials that were meant to stoke the Hungarians’ desire for revolt. It’s literally on Wikipedia, it’s no CIA-hidden secret at all! And if they were active that way, maybe they also funded some of the people and organisations in Hungary at the time? That doesn’t sound unreasonable to me as an otherwise uninformed person on the topic. But is that idea corroborated by this new document? No.
It’s incredible to me how ignorant people are of the CIA’s history, to the point of even calling into question whether they were engaged in these sorts of activities in general. This isn’t just me saying this or just some fringe group - it’s the accepted historical record. The proper propaganda line you’re supposed to use here is, “of course they did all those things in the past, but that was a long time ago and they’ve changed” (despite nobody ever being held accountable and nobody actually doing anything to change it). Deviating into straight up denialism just makes you look ignorant to anyone who’s actually informed about it.
If you want a detailed case study of how the CIA operated/operates, I recommend All The Shah’s Men by Stephen Kinzer, which details the 1953 Iranian coup. Kinzer is a respected journalist who’s contributed to the NYT and the Guardian.
Or we could look at different Wikipedia pages that detail the US’s involvement in coups and regime changes around the world, all of which will agree with me, that the CIA did these things pretty regularly. You’re the one who is deviating from the historical record accepted by actual historians.
This is a good comparison too - “in the 20’s”, you say, but the document you posted is not from the relevant decade, and is even from a different continent
Bruh. That was a separate hypothetical. You must be acting in bad faith.
Besides, even just ctrl+F’ing “CIA” in the Wikipedia article on the revolution shows that yes, CIA did emit materials that were meant to stoke the Hungarians’ desire for revolt. It’s literally on Wikipedia, it’s no CIA-hidden secret at all!
Great! So I’m right, it’s just like the meme. The only detail that’s in dispute is whether or not the document provides further evidence of involvement.
It’s incredible to me how ignorant people are of the CIA’s history
I’m not from the US and we didn’t have a class on CIA history. What you expect, am I supposed to be utterly fascinated by your country’s history and read about it extensively just so that we all can be as enlightened as you are?
even calling into question whether they were engaged in these sorts of activities in general
You’re the one who is deviating from the historical record accepted by actual historians.
But I literally haven’t done that. If I have, show me the sentence where I did and I’ll absolutely take it back. You’re reading something into my comments that isn’t there - just like you’re reading events from 1963 US into 1956 Hungary.
The proper propaganda line you’re supposed to use here is
No, I’m not supposed to act like whatever stereotype/strawman you’re imagining in your head. You can fuck right off with this sort of “communication”.
Kinzer is a respected journalist who’s contributed to the NYT and the Guardian.
Thank you for the recommendation. However, if we’re going to hurl stereotypes at each other instead of arguments, I can’t help but point out that I’ve seen numerous Lemmy leftists claim that NYT is a liberal propaganda rag. So idk if that’s actually a plus for Kinzer.
Bruh. That was a separate hypothetical.
What does this even mean? You brought it up as an analogy, I pointed out that the analogy has been picked to make your primary claim look more obvious and logical than it really is.
Great! So I’m right, it’s just like the meme. The only detail that’s in dispute is whether or not the document provides further evidence of involvement.
You might finally start to get it! You accused me of doubting CIA’s involvment even though I literally pointed out to you that there is different, solid evidence they were involved! Like how stupid of a CIA-involvment-denier would I have to be to do that? And yet you’re still failing to understand that this never was my main point anyway!
If I believe that the Earth is flat, but then I have a dream where I see that the Earth is actually round, and then I start believing that it is round, does that mean I’m “correct”? Technically maybe yes but based on wrong information/reasoning!
This is word for word the logic of right wing conspiracy theorists who ascribe every thing they don’t like to Jews.
Have you actually tried to piece it together, though? Have you at the very least googled who these people are, what sort of plausible chronology could be reconstructed, anything? Have you noticed that Kiraly, who was involved in the 1956 revolution and subsequently left the country, lived in US at the time of the letter (1963)? Is it not worthy of considering that the HFFF Inc. was based in the US and was founded by Kiraly and similar Hungarians in exile?
There are people with the exact same resources as you, i.e. the internet, already discussing this seriously and digging for more info and trying to figure out what can be reasonably concluded: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AHungarian_Revolution_of_1956#JFK_files
In court of law, an admission is pretty solid proof. Your meme says the involvement was admitted. I guess it wouldn’t look as convincing or funny if the meme said they admitted they funded some organisation outside of Hungary 7 years after the actual event.
Your arguments are growing thin. Your narrative is actually made up of vague connections with a 7-year gap. I don’t even intend to suggest to know what HFFF actually did or whether CIA was involved in 1956 Hungary, my point is only that this is neither admission nor meaningful proof of anything other than that they did fund some dissidents outside Hungary in 1963. (They obviously funded dissidents all over the place throughout the decades, I mean, they’d be crazy not to, and 1956 Hungary wouldn’t surprise me either, I suppose.)
See, while trawling through these JFK files right wingers have already found a connection with Jews, as tenuous as it is, and tout it as solid proof it was them who had JFK killed, because after all we already know Jews are nefarious and evil, and clearly any weak connection to JFK’s death is good enough - of course (((they’ve))) scrubbed the proof, etc. so internet randos can go creative. Or maybe some higher standards for proof would be in order…
Really? Can you name 5 world leaders who were overthrown by a secret Jewish cabal the way I can for the CIA, just off the top of my head? I think, maybe, there might be a little bit of a difference there.
This comparison is so fucking stupid that it ends up being antisemitic, because by equating the two you’re implying that this secret Jewish cabal both exists and has similar power and influence as the most powerful and well funded spy agency on the planet that has a very long and well documented history orchestrating coups and color revolutions and successfully covering up their involvement for decades, that also, you know, actually exists. Get a grip!
Yes, my meme made use of an existing meme and the phrasing of the original wasn’t 100% accurate. I apologize because my username and avatar seems to have caused some confusion, but this is actually an online meme community and not a court of law.
Again, the difference is I can point to countless times where that actually happened with the CIA and they can’t do that with Jews! I stg, it’s like, if I hear about a black person who was found strung up from a tree in the 20’s, I’m gonna go, “Huh, seems like it was probably white supremacists like the KKK” but apparently you’ll then chime in with “wElL hOw Do YoU nNoW iT wAsN’t AsIaN sUpReMaCiStS, hUh?” Because one of them is a real thing that actually existed at that time and place with significant power and a track record of doing that sort of thing repeatedly and getting away with it, and the other is a made up delusion.
Antisemitic conspiracy theorists would certainly be glad to send you extensive “evidence” that e.g. the Russian revolution was also supported by Jews, or various other political manipulations that they’ve supposedly carried out (why only limit it to toppling governments?). Now, as I’ve talked with these people enough times, I found it is impossible to spend days trying to check all the nonsense they may throw at me, and in general any discussion of any topic ever could be extended into eternity. What is perfectly reasonable is to abstract the individual case and figure out how it may plausibly be explained by itself. Antisemitic nonsense always fails here. In this case, so does your ascription of 1956 to CIA based on this particular document. The wider picture is different, as I’ve already said, it’s simply much more logical that CIA has supported anti-communist movements than that the antisemitic bullshit about the Jews is true. But if your standards are low enough to be convinced by a conjecture as weak as this one, that does lead me to worry about whether your general conviction on CIA’s actions is well-founded either.
I mean it is very obvious that you don’t want to inquire into this any further or discuss the contents and context of the document, I’ve simply checked Wikipedia on Kiraly and it looks like I’ve already done more research about it than you have. All you have are implications, you haven’t addressed the chronology, who was active where and when…
This is a good comparison too - “in the 20’s”, you say, but the document you posted is not from the relevant decade, and is even from a different continent.
Besides, even just ctrl+F’ing “CIA” in the Wikipedia article on the revolution shows that yes, CIA did emit materials that were meant to stoke the Hungarians’ desire for revolt. It’s literally on Wikipedia, it’s no CIA-hidden secret at all! And if they were active that way, maybe they also funded some of the people and organisations in Hungary at the time? That doesn’t sound unreasonable to me as an otherwise uninformed person on the topic. But is that idea corroborated by this new document? No.
It’s incredible to me how ignorant people are of the CIA’s history, to the point of even calling into question whether they were engaged in these sorts of activities in general. This isn’t just me saying this or just some fringe group - it’s the accepted historical record. The proper propaganda line you’re supposed to use here is, “of course they did all those things in the past, but that was a long time ago and they’ve changed” (despite nobody ever being held accountable and nobody actually doing anything to change it). Deviating into straight up denialism just makes you look ignorant to anyone who’s actually informed about it.
If you want a detailed case study of how the CIA operated/operates, I recommend All The Shah’s Men by Stephen Kinzer, which details the 1953 Iranian coup. Kinzer is a respected journalist who’s contributed to the NYT and the Guardian.
Or we could look at different Wikipedia pages that detail the US’s involvement in coups and regime changes around the world, all of which will agree with me, that the CIA did these things pretty regularly. You’re the one who is deviating from the historical record accepted by actual historians.
Bruh. That was a separate hypothetical. You must be acting in bad faith.
Great! So I’m right, it’s just like the meme. The only detail that’s in dispute is whether or not the document provides further evidence of involvement.
I’m not from the US and we didn’t have a class on CIA history. What you expect, am I supposed to be utterly fascinated by your country’s history and read about it extensively just so that we all can be as enlightened as you are?
But I literally haven’t done that. If I have, show me the sentence where I did and I’ll absolutely take it back. You’re reading something into my comments that isn’t there - just like you’re reading events from 1963 US into 1956 Hungary.
No, I’m not supposed to act like whatever stereotype/strawman you’re imagining in your head. You can fuck right off with this sort of “communication”.
Thank you for the recommendation. However, if we’re going to hurl stereotypes at each other instead of arguments, I can’t help but point out that I’ve seen numerous Lemmy leftists claim that NYT is a liberal propaganda rag. So idk if that’s actually a plus for Kinzer.
What does this even mean? You brought it up as an analogy, I pointed out that the analogy has been picked to make your primary claim look more obvious and logical than it really is.
You might finally start to get it! You accused me of doubting CIA’s involvment even though I literally pointed out to you that there is different, solid evidence they were involved! Like how stupid of a CIA-involvment-denier would I have to be to do that? And yet you’re still failing to understand that this never was my main point anyway!
If I believe that the Earth is flat, but then I have a dream where I see that the Earth is actually round, and then I start believing that it is round, does that mean I’m “correct”? Technically maybe yes but based on wrong information/reasoning!