I understand that’s how things are, but I don’t think that is how they should be. And while I’m an atheist, I also understand many people aren’t. Why force my irreligiosity on them?
So while students should not be indoctrinated on any particular religion in school, I don’t see the harm in letting both teachers and students wear whatever they like, including religious symbols.
In fact, it would be great if we taught all students the basics of multiple world religions in school and let people of different faiths talk to each other about what is important to them.
I really like this stance. Understanding other people is absolutely important. You don’t have to agree with them, but you do have to understand them and see them as people.
Precisely! We have more in common than not. And I sincerely believe that we become more tolerant by talking and trying to understand each other, even if we find areas where we disagree.
Remaining in our own little information bubble is what radicalizes people.
I can see where you are coming from. How can we forbid clothing if the goal is to not dictate what to wear?
But consider that in a community, be that at school or in the neighborhood, classmates and neighbors can uphold unregulated, religious rules. Is it free choice of clothing if the law doesn’t forbid anything, but only girls with (insert appropriate clothing) are allowed to join in the play? And there is plenty precedent of religion that causes precisely such group behavior.
There is plenty of precedent of non-religious informal rules around clothing. E.g. men wearing skirts, dresses, or soft “feminine” colors. Do those informal rules bother you as well? Should we change the law accordingly, or are we okay with informal norms of conduct in that case?
In general, yes I do think that we should get rid of such informal rules. And I would appreciate a law that e.g. ensures an employer can not discriminate against men wearing dresses or skirts. For what it’s worth, there have been protest by bus drivers, who are not allowed to wear shorts in the summer, who showed up in skirts on a hot day.
If we change the garment from abayas to pants it would be “to ban male students from wearing pants in school”, meaning they’d be forced to wear skirts or dresses. But two points make this different from the OP:
Since this is not linked to religion it has a slightly different spin. I can’t put it into words that well, but a guy choosing to wear a skirt is just that, a clothing choice. But Islam is pretty explicit that women should cover themselves. So if a guy goes against the informal law people would make fun of him. If an Islam woman wears short clothes she is not only made fun of, but can also get in trouble with her entire community.
While dresses/skirts are almost exclusively worn by women, pants are worn by men and women. So a guy wearing pants is not the outlier, he is wearing the gender neutral clothing. If abayas are also worn by a significant fraction of male students in France I would heavily oppose the proposed ban, but I found nothing that would indicate such a practice.
Well if that really were the fears of people proposing such bans, then there would be a lot of better ways to achieve this. At the very least they would try to support such bans with flanking policies such as better infrastructure to support such women who are oppressed in a religious ways as for example better integration courses and public information.
And for some reason it’s always only about Muslim women! Other religions which can also coerce or force family members to follow a certain dress code, not a single word about them.
And for some reason it’s always only about Muslim women! Other religions which can also coerce or force family members to follow a certain dress code, not a single word about them.
Because right now and in Europe those are rather rare. Afaik there’s some Christian groups where women always wear long skirts, but those groups tend to get called “cults” (“Sekten” here in Germany) so I don’t really see a double standard there.
That said, there are surveys regarding why women wear hijabs and - at least in Germany - those say that the vast majority wears them voluntarily.
Because right now and in Europe those are rather rare.
So were Muslim women wearing Burqas and yet several countries have made laws against them. So the rarity of the oppression doesn’t seem to matter that much.
But regardless, if this is a legitimate problem, then the law should be secular and apply to all religions.
I understand that’s how things are, but I don’t think that is how they should be.
Don’t take that guy just at his word. France does force secularism on their government buildings and workers, including teachers. But public wearing of religious symbols or garnment is perfectly fine. They recently banned face covering, with the obvious target of Muslim women wearing burqa or niqabs, but everything else is perfectly legal to wear in public.
I don’t see harm by them not being allowed to wear it…
How would you feel about somebody banning your favorite attire? What right do they have to tell you what to wear?
And you should talk about all religions, but only in a negative way.
Why? Even though I’m an atheist, it’s also clear that religion is often a source of comfort and community to many people, especially during times of hardship. And by learning a little about different religions we can learn to be more tolerant of people who see the world differently.
How would you feel about somebody banning your favorite attire? What right do they have to tell you what to wear?
Its not a favorite attire when its a religious thing that is forced on people.
Why? Even though I’m an atheist, it’s also clear that religion is often a source of comfort and community to many people, especially during times of hardship. And by learning a little about different religions we can learn to be more tolerant of people who see the world differently.
Nope. We don’t need to tolerate things that preach intolerance. There is nothing positive about religions in general.
Its not a favorite attire when its a religious thing that is forced on people.
Am I asking that we force women to cover their hair? No, I’m saying that they should be allowed to choose by themselves. Not coerced to cover it, not banned from doing so either. Let them choose.
We don’t need to tolerate things that preach intolerance. There is nothing positive about religions in general.
The only intolerance we are seeing here is your own.
Oh, yeah, I’m suggesting that people should be able to choose what they wear. And that religion can be a source of comfort to people. How hateful and intolerant of me! I should go return my atheism card in shame.
I understand that’s how things are, but I don’t think that is how they should be. And while I’m an atheist, I also understand many people aren’t. Why force my irreligiosity on them?
So while students should not be indoctrinated on any particular religion in school, I don’t see the harm in letting both teachers and students wear whatever they like, including religious symbols.
In fact, it would be great if we taught all students the basics of multiple world religions in school and let people of different faiths talk to each other about what is important to them.
I really like this stance. Understanding other people is absolutely important. You don’t have to agree with them, but you do have to understand them and see them as people.
Precisely! We have more in common than not. And I sincerely believe that we become more tolerant by talking and trying to understand each other, even if we find areas where we disagree.
Remaining in our own little information bubble is what radicalizes people.
I can see where you are coming from. How can we forbid clothing if the goal is to not dictate what to wear?
But consider that in a community, be that at school or in the neighborhood, classmates and neighbors can uphold unregulated, religious rules. Is it free choice of clothing if the law doesn’t forbid anything, but only girls with (insert appropriate clothing) are allowed to join in the play? And there is plenty precedent of religion that causes precisely such group behavior.
There is plenty of precedent of non-religious informal rules around clothing. E.g. men wearing skirts, dresses, or soft “feminine” colors. Do those informal rules bother you as well? Should we change the law accordingly, or are we okay with informal norms of conduct in that case?
In general, yes I do think that we should get rid of such informal rules. And I would appreciate a law that e.g. ensures an employer can not discriminate against men wearing dresses or skirts. For what it’s worth, there have been protest by bus drivers, who are not allowed to wear shorts in the summer, who showed up in skirts on a hot day.
If we change the garment from abayas to pants it would be “to ban male students from wearing pants in school”, meaning they’d be forced to wear skirts or dresses. But two points make this different from the OP:
Well if that really were the fears of people proposing such bans, then there would be a lot of better ways to achieve this. At the very least they would try to support such bans with flanking policies such as better infrastructure to support such women who are oppressed in a religious ways as for example better integration courses and public information.
And for some reason it’s always only about Muslim women! Other religions which can also coerce or force family members to follow a certain dress code, not a single word about them.
Because right now and in Europe those are rather rare. Afaik there’s some Christian groups where women always wear long skirts, but those groups tend to get called “cults” (“Sekten” here in Germany) so I don’t really see a double standard there.
That said, there are surveys regarding why women wear hijabs and - at least in Germany - those say that the vast majority wears them voluntarily.
So were Muslim women wearing Burqas and yet several countries have made laws against them. So the rarity of the oppression doesn’t seem to matter that much.
But regardless, if this is a legitimate problem, then the law should be secular and apply to all religions.
Don’t take that guy just at his word. France does force secularism on their government buildings and workers, including teachers. But public wearing of religious symbols or garnment is perfectly fine. They recently banned face covering, with the obvious target of Muslim women wearing burqa or niqabs, but everything else is perfectly legal to wear in public.
I don’t see harm by them not being allowed to wear it…
And you should talk about all religions, but only in a negative way.
How would you feel about somebody banning your favorite attire? What right do they have to tell you what to wear?
Why? Even though I’m an atheist, it’s also clear that religion is often a source of comfort and community to many people, especially during times of hardship. And by learning a little about different religions we can learn to be more tolerant of people who see the world differently.
Its not a favorite attire when its a religious thing that is forced on people.
Nope. We don’t need to tolerate things that preach intolerance. There is nothing positive about religions in general.
Am I asking that we force women to cover their hair? No, I’m saying that they should be allowed to choose by themselves. Not coerced to cover it, not banned from doing so either. Let them choose.
The only intolerance we are seeing here is your own.
Still supporting hate and intolerance i see. Get lost.
Oh, yeah, I’m suggesting that people should be able to choose what they wear. And that religion can be a source of comfort to people. How hateful and intolerant of me! I should go return my atheism card in shame.