“When you walk into a classroom, you shouldn’t be able to identify the pupils’ religion just by looking at them,”
What a dumb fucking reason. Really, that’s the best he could come up with? Why not? What’s so bad about knowing someone’s religion, when they are obviously not shy about it?
I get banning religious symbols from schools, because the institutes themselves are supposed to be non-religious (seperation of state and church and so on), but if the students themselves want to express their religion, let them.
French laicite is not freedom of religion, as the Anglosphere would understand it. (Which makes their insistence that it’s just the direct translation of “secularism” frustrating.) It’s a consistent effort to make religion every individual’s private business.
Compare fucking. You can do whatever you want with whoever you want. Just not on a street corner. Other people don’t want to deal with that.
I don’t personally endorse this approach, for a variety of reasons, but you have to understand it to condemn it.
I wasn’t talking about Frances interpretation though, as I’m obviously not well informed on that. I was more thinking about the EU commitment to freedom of religion as stated in the “EU Guidelines on the promotion and protection of freedom of religion or belief”, in which all EU member states commit to protijg the freedom of religion in the EU (and even outside if possible, see OSCE).
Just as a small excerpt:
(b) the freedom to manifest one’s religion or belief, individually or in community with others, in public or private, through worship, observance, practice and teaching.
This includes the duty to rescind discriminatory legislation, implement legislation that protects freedom of religion or belief, and halt official practices that cause discrimination, as well as to protect people from discrimination by state and other influential actors, whether religious or non-religious
So the state has a responsibility to protect the freedom of religion, within it’s territory.
That’s literally what freedom of religion means though. To be able to express your religion in both public and private, without the state interfering.
Every EU country has committed itself to the “EU Guidelines on the promotion and protection of freedom of religion or belief”. Freedom of religion does not mean that people are free to follow their religion behind closed doors or in places that you or the state allow them to practice it.
To be honest pupils still have the right to talk about their religion. The difference between clothing and discussion is that clothing seems more intrusive to others
Probably not the reason, but don’t you remember how many assholes were at school? You express anything at all about yourself and you are open to attack.
So you bar people from expressing their religion so they don’t get bullied? Absolute gigabrain move.
“Should we punish the bullies? Maybe take measures so the teachers know how to better deal with conflict? No. Let’s punish the kids getting bullied by taking away their right to express their religion. Surely the bullies won’t find anything else to bully these kids.”
I think they do punish the bullies. The through process is more that, the school isn’t omnipotent and bullies will bully not matter what but if something becomes a bullying target, then it gets blanket removed from all. The school feels like its being firm but fair, but in reality they continually nibble at the childrens freedoms to the point where it totally feels like a jail for kids.
You can’t have a parallel religious law system in a secular state. So there absolutely should be pressure on people to accept that religious “rules” have no power there.
I think you underestimate the influence of religious symbols. It’s not just any type of clothing. It’s a tool for religious communities that has considerable impact, especially when your parents make you wear it, it has beliefs attached to it and is easily visible to everyone around you.
I mean parents so have a lot of freedom to raise their children as they see fit. And I think that is a good thing. I would not do a lot of things that other people do, but it’s totally in the rights of people to raise their children religiously, and that can include wearing certain kinds of clothes.
Well, that’s were we disagree. I don’t think parents should be free to raise their child however they want to. And it’s also not in their rights in every country.
So much for freedom of religion.
What a dumb fucking reason. Really, that’s the best he could come up with? Why not? What’s so bad about knowing someone’s religion, when they are obviously not shy about it?
I get banning religious symbols from schools, because the institutes themselves are supposed to be non-religious (seperation of state and church and so on), but if the students themselves want to express their religion, let them.
French laicite is not freedom of religion, as the Anglosphere would understand it. (Which makes their insistence that it’s just the direct translation of “secularism” frustrating.) It’s a consistent effort to make religion every individual’s private business.
Compare fucking. You can do whatever you want with whoever you want. Just not on a street corner. Other people don’t want to deal with that.
I don’t personally endorse this approach, for a variety of reasons, but you have to understand it to condemn it.
That’s very interesting, I didn’t know that.
I wasn’t talking about Frances interpretation though, as I’m obviously not well informed on that. I was more thinking about the EU commitment to freedom of religion as stated in the “EU Guidelines on the promotion and protection of freedom of religion or belief”, in which all EU member states commit to protijg the freedom of religion in the EU (and even outside if possible, see OSCE).
Just as a small excerpt:
So the state has a responsibility to protect the freedom of religion, within it’s territory.
School is a special place. Religion must not get in
Said every authoritarian ever. So you don’t believe in freedom of religion and being able to express that?
Of course I do, just not in school. School is more sacred than religions
That’s literally what freedom of religion means though. To be able to express your religion in both public and private, without the state interfering. Every EU country has committed itself to the “EU Guidelines on the promotion and protection of freedom of religion or belief”. Freedom of religion does not mean that people are free to follow their religion behind closed doors or in places that you or the state allow them to practice it.
To be honest pupils still have the right to talk about their religion. The difference between clothing and discussion is that clothing seems more intrusive to others
Probably not the reason, but don’t you remember how many assholes were at school? You express anything at all about yourself and you are open to attack.
Don’t worry kids, the school attacked you so that other kids wouldn’t be able to.
You’re not wrong. My kids have just finished school and it may as well have been a jail. Strict dress code with no ability to express themselves.
So you bar people from expressing their religion so they don’t get bullied? Absolute gigabrain move.
“Should we punish the bullies? Maybe take measures so the teachers know how to better deal with conflict? No. Let’s punish the kids getting bullied by taking away their right to express their religion. Surely the bullies won’t find anything else to bully these kids.”
I think they do punish the bullies. The through process is more that, the school isn’t omnipotent and bullies will bully not matter what but if something becomes a bullying target, then it gets blanket removed from all. The school feels like its being firm but fair, but in reality they continually nibble at the childrens freedoms to the point where it totally feels like a jail for kids.
This is why not
“Secularism means the freedom to emancipate oneself through school,” Mr Attal told TF1
Seems pretty reasonable to me.
Yes the freedom to do so. You should be free to NOT do that though. You should be free from pressure in both directions.
You can’t have a parallel religious law system in a secular state. So there absolutely should be pressure on people to accept that religious “rules” have no power there.
Yes but forbidding the choice to wear a cross necklace or a headscarf is not exactly freedom is it?
Nobody is arguing for a parallel law system
I think you underestimate the influence of religious symbols. It’s not just any type of clothing. It’s a tool for religious communities that has considerable impact, especially when your parents make you wear it, it has beliefs attached to it and is easily visible to everyone around you.
I mean parents so have a lot of freedom to raise their children as they see fit. And I think that is a good thing. I would not do a lot of things that other people do, but it’s totally in the rights of people to raise their children religiously, and that can include wearing certain kinds of clothes.
Well, that’s were we disagree. I don’t think parents should be free to raise their child however they want to. And it’s also not in their rights in every country.